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Re:Phytoplankton air filters
Friday, March 14, 2014 1:34 AM
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Why does it have to be in bags to be a continuous culture? I've kept Isochrysis in batch, in gallon jars, but it is a continuous culture, and in log growth. 25 % a day is pretty fast. You say that algae has to grow slowly to be nutritious? not sure that is accurate.
check out Kathy's Clowns, llc website: http://kathysclowns.com Captive bred clownfish and more (Wholesale to the trade.)
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Re:Phytoplankton air filters
Friday, March 14, 2014 7:42 AM
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More good points, Kathy. And I hope you didn't take offense that "a serious culturist has a different setup". I didn't mean to use a phrase that offends and I apologize if it did. You don't need bags for continuous culture, but there's so much more stability from a two or five gallon bag than 2l cola bottles. Keeping log growth in a gallon jar by hand is certainly doable with your skill level. I personally prefer a large new bag to bottle serilization. But use whatever system works for you. There is no problem with batch cultures, or extending batch cultures as you do into semi-continuous cultures by regular harvest and replacement of new water and fertilizer. I just ask other people to consider that a dosing pump, controller and better air sterilization for ease, consistency and longer term cultures. In your case experience may replace equipment. Yes, 25% daily growth is a lot, especially for algaes not named nannochloropsis and chlorella. It depends on many things. I'm using that figure because that what automated systems get. Diatoms are fast growers and keep positively bouyant with an oil droplet in each cell which makes them good culture organisms. But I think there is more to the picture than just EPA and DHA. And trust me that the more vitamins an algae has to synthesize, the slower it grows. But you bring up another good point. One thing about artemia or rotifers is that they grow and reproduce on weed algaes. If this are your target food and your target larvae are clowns you can get by with nanno and iso. But even then my opinion is that its better to nutrient pack with a higher quality algae before feeding. You may not agree. Whether you are aiming at clownfish or harder larvae I think an automated continuous culture is to be easier, although your opinion is different. There is room for both. Continue with the system you have, it works. I'm not saying that you're not a serious culturist if you don't have a more automated setup. But I am saying that bag cultures with dosing pumps and air filtration are better for automated growing of more nutritious algae. I even think they will work better for nanno and iso.
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Re:Phytoplankton air filters
Friday, March 14, 2014 8:45 AM
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Dave, you bring up many good points, in my opinion, and this is a very interesting thread. I personally love automation, and will be following this with interest. Please don't leave out the details! PS. no offense taken, or even noticed. There are many ways to do most anything, and the way I've chosen is not necessarily the best way for everyone. It is majorly refreshing to see a different approach.
check out Kathy's Clowns, llc website: http://kathysclowns.com Captive bred clownfish and more (Wholesale to the trade.)
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Re:Phytoplankton air filters
Friday, March 14, 2014 12:34 PM
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Thanks Kathy. I'm glad you're interested in automation. For $50 you can get a genuine Italian Arduino Mega, which will run relays (switches) to turn on and off at least 50 electrical devices to the millisecond. A Chinese knockoff (funduino) costs $25. Small dosing pumps, solenoids and stepper motors can be found on ebay in the $10 range. This is so much cheaper than our free time with our families. Programming C language is not my forte (I'm completely ignorant in that regard) but put all that together and the machines work for you instead of you being tied 24 hours to a larval run. However it takes a well seasoned culturist like yourself to constantly tinker with the program timing. Biology is the furthest thing from an exact science and larviculture teeters on a fine line. Too little food is death from starvation. Too much is death from poor water. Each day the population is not only grows exponentially, but the loss rate changes the formula. What may have been good yesterday for 1,000 larvae won't work today for 500. We are crazy for trying to fit nature into a programmed formula. But it's fun to try. And IMHO a large system is less work than a small one because a large one can be automated. I will probably fail in my quest to grow angels, but even a low success is acceptable if you start with 5,000 eggs a day. I may not be smart but every day I can tinker with formulas and timers until I see something change for the better. Either that or I'll have to abandon my efforts and find a way to live with 100 pygmy angels in a reef tank. Poor, poor pitiful me as Linda Ronstadt would say.
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Re:Phytoplankton air filters
Friday, March 14, 2014 2:09 PM
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Originally Posted by dave w
With good light and nutrients a phyto culture will grow by about 25%-30% a day, so you will supply that much clean and fertilized water to the culture while harvesting 25%-30% greenwater. Without contamination, you could theoretically do this forever and keep the phyto culture in an exponential growth phase. My apologies, I overlooked the terminology differences between "batch culture" and "continuous culture". On the terminology subject, the word "algae" is plural where the word "alga" is singular. So the word "algaes" is not correct. Essentially "algae" is "algas" haha! I don't mean to be a smart(butt) about it, but we should be correct. I believe (haha) the following sentences are correct: "Tetraselmis is the only alga I am currently culturing." "There are three algae in my culture room." From a biological standpoint, it would make sense for slower growing algae to be more nutritious, so I do "trust you" on that one, although the words "trust me" usually lead into a dark void!
Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]
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Re:Phytoplankton air filters
Friday, March 14, 2014 2:41 PM
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If you begin on grammar and spelling or you'll never be able to devote time to your fish! I still forget whether its isochrysis or isochrisys. And at my adancing age a correction only helps a few hours before I forget. My favorite terms for copepods are "euryhaliness and eurytherminess" which are my butchered words for how much salinity and heat they can tolerate. And you're right that the last people to trust are the ones who say "just trust me". And at my advancing age a correction only helps a few hours before I forget. (ha, ha) Do what works for you, but get that nerdy teenage nephew to tell you how to program your controller or arduino so that you can add a few solenoid valves and dosing pumps to your setup. I think you'll be glad you did. .
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Re:Phytoplankton air filters
Saturday, March 15, 2014 11:19 AM
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The last time i looked at solenoids, they were $50 to $350 each, but I just checked ebay, and Dave's right. This will not be as expensive as I originally thought. Continue!
check out Kathy's Clowns, llc website: http://kathysclowns.com Captive bred clownfish and more (Wholesale to the trade.)
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Re:Phytoplankton air filters
Saturday, March 15, 2014 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by EasterEggs
Originally Posted by dave w
With good light and nutrients a phyto culture will grow by about 25%-30% a day, so you will supply that much clean and fertilized water to the culture while harvesting 25%-30% greenwater. Without contamination, you could theoretically do this forever and keep the phyto culture in an exponential growth phase. My apologies, I overlooked the terminology differences between "batch culture" and "continuous culture". On the terminology subject, the word "algae" is plural where the word "alga" is singular. So the word "algaes" is not correct. Essentially "algae" is "algas" haha! I don't mean to be a smart(butt) about it, but we should be correct. I believe (haha) the following sentences are correct: "Tetraselmis is the only alga I am currently culturing." "There are three algae in my culture room." From a biological standpoint, it would make sense for slower growing algae to be more nutritious, so I do "trust you" on that one, although the words "trust me" usually lead into a dark void! Don't let Matt Pedersen see this thread or it will be taken up by his opinions on the use of data as a plural or as a singular noun. Please.
check out Kathy's Clowns, llc website: http://kathysclowns.com Captive bred clownfish and more (Wholesale to the trade.)
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Re:Phytoplankton air filters
Sunday, March 16, 2014 2:50 PM
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Originally Posted by KathyL
The last time i looked at solenoids, they were $50 to $350 each, but I just checked ebay, and Dave's right. This will not be as expensive as I originally thought. Continue! Kathy, a few words of warning. First, yes there are $10 saltwater solenoids on ebay. They are cheap and probably will not last a long time, I'm guessing maybe a year but that's just a wild guess. They are also the type that function without a lot of back pressure which is good. They are advertised as gravity feed which is fine for me, but more than something like 3 p.s.i. and they leak. But please be a healthy skeptic about any chinese solenoid that claims to be saltwater safe. I'm going to use them but I'm also prepared for them to fail after a while. You can buy higher quality 3/4" saltwater safe solenoids for $90 too. I'm sure they are better quality and will last longer. However they may need 15 p.s.i. back pressure to operate. Finally, there is the motorized ball valve at more money and even higher quality. All of these will do the job. I think the difficulty isn't the hardware but software. You may need solenoid A to open for 5 minutes, then solenoid B for five min, then have pump aa turn on for 3 minutes, then have solenoid C turn on for 30 seconds. This may sound easy in principle but when you begin troubleshooting the program or sketch you'll find that it is never that easy. And there are all the miscellaneous things that can happen. A piece of algae gets caught in the solenoid and keeps it from closing. The house power goes out. You try to increase the time that one applicance is on and it interferes with the sequence of the other appliances. It's not for the faint of heart.
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Re:Phytoplankton air filters
Wednesday, September 3, 2014 4:29 PM
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Have any of you gained any experience with the water filter for air or the automation? I would be happy to volunteer any programming help that might be needed. My first run with Iso has likely failed so I need to replan, improve, and retry.
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