Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis

General
Species:  Thor amboinensis.
Social Structure:  Protandric hermaphrodite.
Size of Individuals:  1 to 2 centimeters.
Age of Individuals: 
Date added to Tank:  June 9, 2011.

Broodstock Tank Details
Size of Tank:  2.5g display with 5g sump.
Substrate Details:  1/2" deep sugar-fine quartz.
Filtration Details:  AquaticLife Mini 115 skimmer and Fluval U1 for carbon. 
Water Changes:  2qt/day mature display tank water.
Water Temperature:  78 - 80 degrees fahrenheit.
Lighting:  ~9" of a 24" T5 10k x2 (shared with kreisel refugium).
Lighting Cycle:  12/12.
Other Tank Inhabitants:  Small watermelon mushroom.

Broodstock Feeding Details
Food Types:  Formula 1.
Feeding Schedule:  Ever other day.

Spawning Details
Date of First Spawn:
Spawn Time of Day:
Dates of Consecutive Spawns:
Courtship Details:  Males compete to sidle up along side the female.  Once the female accepts a mate, the male mounts her from behind.  A quick lift of her tail and the deed is done in an instant.  The male then guards the female from other males for several minutes after mating.
Egg Size: < 0.5 millimeter.
Egg Color:  Red-orange
Egg Count:  ~2 dozen?

Hatch Details
Hatch Date: 
Hatch Time of Day: 
# Days after Spawn: 
Larvae Description: 


Larval Tank Details
Temperature:  78 - 79 degrees fahrenheit.
Size of Larval Tank:  ~4g cylinder in a 10g tank with ~4g HOB refugium.
Substrate Details:  3.5" deep sugar-fine quartz (refugium only).
Other Tank Decor: 
Filtration Details:  Fluval 105 with carbon and sponges (cleaned daily), DSB, and Chaeto.
Lighting:  ~15" of a 24" T5 10k x2 (shared with brood tank).
Lighting Cycle:  12/12.
Water Changes: 

Larval Feeding Details
Food Types:  Baby brine shrimp.
Feeding Schedule: 

Metamorphosis/Settlement
Date of Settlement Start: 
Days after Hatch: 
Date of Settlement End: 
Description of Fry: 

Grow-Out Tank Details
Temperature: 
Size of Grow-Out Tank: 
Substrate Details: 
Other Tank Decor: 
Filtration Details: 
Lighting: 
Lighting Cycle: 
Water Changes: 
Size at Transfer: 
Age at Transfer: 

Grow-Out Feeding Details
Food Types: 
Feeding Schedule: 

Additional Information
(No Pictures or Videos in the Section Please)
Miscellaneous Information: 

Breeder Log
Kreisel Log

You will be required to provide photographic evidence in this thread of each event submitted for the MBI Program.
If your thread does not contain these photos the MBI Committee will not be able to approve your reports.

Props to pj86 for his fantastic thread and recent success.  I will be following that thread closely.  I'm not entirely sure what "protandric hermaphrodite" means, but I trust it's accurate. :]
 
This thread represents an important first objective of a more grandiose goal.  It is also intended as an experiment in cross posting for greater collaborative opportunity.  Specifically, I wish to eventually breed Chelidonura varians (Blue Velvet Nudibranch) and am first breeding Thor amboinensis (Sexy Shrimp) for experience.  I am also attempting to cast this same thread across multiple forums and will cross post appropriate comments by others via quotation.
 
Also, if you have fairly conservative views and are easily discomforted, then you may wish to follow some other thread.  Don't say I didn't give warning.
 
Partners in Pr0n:
www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18262333

I will begin this breeding project by constructing a Kreisel Aquarium, using the following items.
 
10g Glass Tank:

 
6g Polyethylene Jug:

 
40gph-Pump:

 

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

The 40gph pump is made for desktop fountains and has a max lift of 1.8 feet.  It comes with a 5/16" O.D. outlet coupler that appears intended for black hydroponic tubing.
 

 
Instead, I will mate this pump to loc-line, using the following items.
 
Vinyl Tubing: 7/16" O.D. x 5/16" I.D.
Nylon Adapter: 3/8" barb x 1/2" male-threaded.
PVC Coupler: 1/2" female-threaded x 1/2" female-threaded.
Loc-line Adapter: 1/2" male-threaded x 1/2" Loc-line.

 
A happy marriage!
 

 
The vinyl tubing is not a perfect fit to the nylon adapter and requires a little stretching (1/16" to be exact).  A little REEF-SAFE silicon grease can be used if needed, but I find without it the snug fit makes a clamp unnecessary.  I'll probably clamp the vinyl tubing to the outlet coupler with a nylon zip-tie.
 

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

I will also use this 3" PVC as circular baffle.  I could only find ABS in sizes larger than 2", here in town.  So I ordered this 5 foot section of grey 3" PVC along with the 6g jug.
 

 
Now I know what you're thinking.  Devils workshop, right?
 
Have no fear!  Packaged with this faith questioning piece of plastic, came this!
 

 
I couldn't make this up if I tried.
 
As for that jug...

 
It's perfectly round on bottom, but slightly oval on top.  However, I only need about the bottom 10 inches, so this should work.
 
Next, I will cut the PVC to length and place it vertically in the 10g tank.  I'll temporarily seal the bottom to the glass, probably with silly putty, and submerge the pump inside the PVC.  Then I'll experiment with the overflow in an attempt to draw water equally from all sides.
 

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

Anyone who has ever tried to get a perfectly straight, perfectly perpendicular, and perfectly flat cut of PVC knows, a conduit cutter is needed.  Fortunately, I just happen to have one!
 
Hmmm... :/
 
Hacksaw and sandpaper it is!
 
This is an 11" section, sanded to ad nauseum, with silly putty finish.
 

 
Viola!  Now it's erect.
 

 
The GPH looks really good...

 

 
...but the overflow trickles down just one side.

 
I've given it some thought and I believe the best solution is to use micron sock at the point of overflow.  This way it will diffuse across the entire surface, hopefully drawing water equally from all sides.
 

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

I use these on my sump drain and bought an extra one just for the material.  It doesn't wick and it diffuses water flow really well.
 
100 Micron Filter Sock:

 
I've wrapped a small strip around the outside of the pvc, held in place by a rubber band.
 

 
The overflow has now broken into about 8 smaller streams spaced fairly evenly around the circumference.
 

 
I believe this is actually working even better than it appears because the flow only breaks into separate streams upon hitting the inner edge.  As you can see, the water level rises about 1/4" above the edge of the PVC as it initially flows thru the micron sock.  When the pump is turned on and off, the streams very gradually rise and fall more or less in unison.
 

 
I now feel confident that this methodology will spread the draw over a greater area, more evenly, and thus much more gently.
 
 

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

Whys Alives, nice to see that someone is taking it to the next level. Protandric hermaphrodite means that all larva are male upon birth, and may switch into females later in their life cycle. Very interesting that you say you want to try to raise Chelidonura varians, because I also am interested in growing them. I have a thread about Chelidonura varians in another forum, and quite a few ideas and material. I'll let you know when the project is started.  

I've taken both the top and bottom off of the jug.  I tried several different tools, but ultimately found a hacksaw worked best.  As I suspected, without the oval top, the jug now seems genuinely less stressed and more well rounded.  In fact, it immediately wanted to go outside to play.
 

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

I'd be honored to have your collaboration, Pj.  I have found you and jayelblock both to be tremendous assets in my efforts thus far.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

It's looking good so far. I'd keep an eye on that overflow, though. It doesn't take a whole lot of detritus to clog up 100 microns.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Good point!  I could always try a larger micron, but for now I'm thinking I'll just make 3 or 4 strips and rinse them out when needed.
 
At the moment I'm trying to decide how I want to open up the jug for access from the top once inside the tank.  It seems clear I'm going to need to get my whole arm in there, just so I can glue the jug in place, but maybe not.  I'm trying to approach this without assumption, so well see what I come up with.  How much access would be needed otherwise?  Might it be possible to just place a small hole on top, large enough for some vinyl tubing, and use that to siphon things out?
 
I have a good idea as to how I want to design the screen separator, but what micron do I need for sexy larvae?  I'll need to replace it later with the proper micron for BVN.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

Well, you still haven't explained how you are going to make the kreisel, so it's hard to answer your question. But with anything to do with larvae there will be times that you will want to clean every surface, both with the larvae inside and not. So I would leave as much access as possible.
 
I was in the right place at the right time last week and got my family invited for a backstage tour of the aquarium at the Denver zoo. The guy who invited us also happened to be the guy that raises all of their fish larvae. He had constructed an absolutely enormous kreisel out of a huge piece of PVC pipe (probably 1.5'-2' in diameter) that he found on one of the zoo's construction sites for their h. erectus rearing program. That was really cool to see. He just sandwiched it between two pieces of acrylic and used screws (that were pretty darn rusty at this point) to hold it in place and had the whole thing in a shallow (4-6") bath. I wish we'd had more time so I could pick his brains more.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

That's an interesting story.  I had considered using pvc in a similar manner, but I didn't like the thought of trying to cut pieces out of it for the screen and such.  I simply don't have those kind of tools.
 
There is a link in my third post to the kreisel design I am basing this one on, but I'm also trying to improve upon it at the same time.
 
I see what you are saying about needing to get into it for cleaning, but the jug isn't really thick enough for a reclosable top.  The one I'm basing this on simply cuts the top portion off to make an upturned 'C'.  Whereas I'd prefer to keep the circular shape whole.  I'll have to give it more thought.
 
Thanks for the help.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

The following thread has been added to this thread's net:
http://www.nano-reef.com/...x.php?showtopic=267317

Cross posts coming.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

Link
 

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

Link

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

For what it's worth, dremels do a pretty good job with pvc. And, the reason I brought up the cleaning bit was that when I was working on seahorses in  goldfish bowl kreisels I had a heck of a time keeping them clean. And that's with a big, open top. I haven't done Thor, though, so your experience might be entirely different.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Ohhh... I think I've seen your videos.  I'm honored to have you in my thread.
 
Realize, I'm a realist when it comes to my chances of completing the full breeding cycle of BVN.  I mean I'm having a lot of fun doing this and I'm absolutely serious about my goal, but this isn't a battle for a one man army.  I'm trying to spread the bug just as much as I'm trying to find the cure.  Together, we can do this.  You don't have to have a Ph.D, because the Ph.D's are just as clueless when it comes to the BVN cue.  It's simply a matter of trial and error.  So the more people we have trying, the closer we get to the goal.
 
I like this kreisel design for now, because it's simple and effective.  I'm attempting to provide a 'how to' as I find the right materials that anyone can easily get a hold of.
 
Once I've learned a few things building this kreisel and breeding sexy-shrimp, then I'll want a more advanced design.  In the mean time, I want to make this design as good as it can be.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

 
Oh, I'm just some dude. Seriously. I haven't done much of anything.
 

 
Well, do know that apparently a lot of the big-time commercial breeders have given up on kreisels except in special circumstances. Too expensive to build in both materials and manpower and too hard to keep clean. Supposedly, the way they are all going is essentially black, round tubs. The shrimp guys are using specially-built (fiberglass) containers that are rounded cones at the bottom. I've never seen anything commercially made that are close to those except maybe smooth 5 gal. water bottles, and those are too small. Straight-sided cones apparently don't work with shrimp: the water dynamics are wrong and wind up breaking appendages off the kiddos. I have a graphic around here somewhere and I'll try to dig it up if you'd like.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Link

Link
 

@ Weetabix7 and TheUnfocusedOne,
Thanks for the encouragement.  It helps.

@ Umm_fish?,
False humility isn't humility. :p

So which is it?  I should build a kreisel from pvc and acrylic, or I shouldn't bother building a kreisel at all?  You seem conflicted.

I ran into the black tubs during my initial searches, but I'm not going for mass production.  I'm building a piece of lab equipment for experimentation and refinement of technique.  I'm confident I'll be pleased with whatever it is I end up with, but I do appreciate your attention to detail and hope you'll continue to give advice.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

Ain't false humility if it's true. I've a lot of work to do to catch up on the rearing thing.
 
Oh, I'm not conflicted at all. I love kreisels and they do provide beautiful flow. And they have their place (as for animals that really suffer on contact with the surface). I'm just passing on the info that I've heard.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Link
I don't mind in the least, and copyright doesn't apply to linkage anyway.

Link 
I can't help but notice all those badges of success both swimming and crawling under your avatar.

I've taken your words into advisement and want to know your thoughts on this.  I'm thinking of using magnetic clips on both ends of either a refrigerator coil brush or a bundle of chenille pipe cleaners.  It would work similar to a magnetic algae scraper except the outside magnets would be on opposite sides of the kreisel.  The 10" x 2" brush would then be lowered into the kreisel thru a 2" hole on top, tilted sideways, and attached to the two outside magnets.  Then I could use the two magnets to clean the insides of the kreisel with a mirrored circular motion on both sides of the tank.

What I'm wondering is if it would be safe to then shut the flow off long enough to allow the detritus to settle to the bottom.  Then I could just siphon it out and turn the flow back on.  Is that doable?

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

I do agree with Umm-Fish. The only thing to note with sexy shrimps is that they are not to delicate. Also, I did raise them in a straight cylinder, but had planned in adding a inverse cone shape to the bottom in my next batch because a cone shape will give it a more even flow and help the larva not get stuck at the bottom which occasionally happened to the weakest of the larva.

Well, I wouldn't do that if there are any larvae in there.... I think it's a good idea but I'd be worried about putting metal in that wasn't covered. What about a steel bar encased in epoxy then covered in the same hook and loop stuff the magnet cleaners use? Again, though, larvae aren't going to be able to react fast enough to get out of the way of that until they get pretty old and you'll probably have pulled them by then anyway.
 
Speaking of, how are you going to get larvae in and out of there?

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Link
Thanks mndfreeze, but I think the situation might be even worse than you know.  Eventually Flat Worm Exit won't work any longer.  At which point, we'll all be left with manual removal and the few wild caught BVN, which will most likely then only be made available to those attempting to breed.

Link 
Link 
Those don't sound like readily available and easy to use materials.

Actually, the pipe cleaners can be found with nylon cores that coat the metal wire and bond the fibers.  The brush wouldn't be left in the kreisel, but instead just used to clean things out when needed, then removed.

I'm a bit confused.  How would using a brush be any different than putting my hand in there to clean things out?  How does one normally clean these out without hurting the larvae?

I assumed I would remove the larvae by siphon tube.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

Also you both failed to answer the question.  Can I turn the flow off long enough to allow detritus to settle to the bottom?

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

 
No, especially not with shrimp. Very few larvae are strong enough to do this with. Maybe clowns, and even then you'd get deaths. Shrimp have very delicate appendages that will break with rough handling like that. They can handle a certain amount of breakage (at the next molt some damage will be repaired), but too much and you just have dead shrimp. In fact, the whole reason you want some sort of specially designed tank with them is because contact with walls/bottom of the vessel often proves fatal eventually.
 

 
I try to keep my hands out of larval tanks until the animals are pretty big. Other than for the obligatory photo ops, of course. I usually scrub with the end of tiny rigid tubing attached to air line, at least with fish. (I don't know how the shrimp guys do it, since they have the worry of breaking their animals.) Even so, I do wind up with larvae getting sucked into the bucket. Sometimes they live, sometimes they don't. At any rate, I think most of us try to put off cleaning for as long as we can to avoid sucking larvae up. But with shrimp, again, you don't want algae in there that they can get caught up in. One of the plusses on kreisels is that you have water flowing through, so you can actively filter the heck out of it on the sump side so you can try to keep stuff from growing inside the kreisel.
 

 
Wait, I'm again confused on your design. How are you planning to get the cleaning implement (whatever it is) into the kreisel without big openings at the top? I certainly wouldn't put it in there with shrimp larvae. They'll just wind up attached to the scrubbers. Sorry. I hadn't really thought that through before.
 
None of this might be too concerning for Thor. Their larval development is pretty fast so you might have them through meta before you even need to clean the tank the first time. When you move up to something like cleaner shrimp it's a whole new ballgame. As far as the nudibranchs go, do you know how long their larval cycle is?

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Agreed. The less moving you do with these shrimp the better the outcome and the fewer corners in the tank the less likely they will end up getting stuck.
I did quite a bit of research of BVN and have not found their larval cycle.

Link 
Link 
Link
Okay, this is helpful, thank you.  That goes for you too pj, and you too pj.

If direct siphoning is too strong, then what about a large pipit?  Basically hold my finger over the end of a straw and lower the straw into the water over my target and then let my finger off of the end.  The water should gently rise in the straw, drawing my target with it.  If it doesn't rise gently enough, I could place micron sock over the end to reduce the speed.  Doable?

Pj, no one knows the larval cycle of BVN, because no one has gotten them to even settle, let alone cue.  There are just so many unknowns with BNV, damn does it turn me on!

BBS = bare bottom sump?  Since there isn't a lot of light, I assume coralline isn't a problem, but film algae would be.  In my experience, a clump of chaeto in the sump can nearly eliminate film algae everywhere else.

Last night I went out to the crafts store and bought some regular pipe cleaners.  Using about a dozen left over plastic rings from my disposable water bottles caps (the part left over after you unseal it), and a couple of magnetic clips, I was able to weave together this rather rigged yet flexible scrub brush.  I was pretty proud of it last night, with intentions of declaring...

Behold my tool!

But alas... it seems I'm still inadequate. :/

I like the concept tho.  So I'm going to continue to try and think of how to improve on this.  The idea is it can be lowered into the kreisel thru just a 2" hole on top.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

BBS = baby brine shrimp. I kind of disagree there. I get huge bacterial issues when I use BBS if I don't do tons of siphoning.
 
That's a pretty cool looking tool. I just don't know if I think you'll be able to use it while there are larvae.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Link
No shortage of tobacconists in this town.  The hardest part is distinguish them from the "dispensaries".  For whatever my condition, the law says no prescription.

This is what I like about casting a net.  One never knows where a good idea will come from.  I'll be sure to look around.

Link
Well, maybe I won't have to.  If I have liverock and chaeto, maybe I'll only need to clean the sides before each use.

Actually, I hesitate to ask because it seems so painfully obvious, but what about snails?  3 or 4 strombus grazers (note: not true strombus) could really do the trick.  Then all I'd really need to worry about is the screen separator.  Thoughts?

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

You really want to keep the setup as basic as possible Whys Alives. Don't introduce to many variables that you might not be able to control. 
BBS, can cause bacterial blooms in larger breeding setups, but the smaller the setup and the tall cylinder shape will help concentrate any dead BBS at the bottom of the tank and will be easily syphoned out. What other alternative food source do you suggest Umm_Fish?

Link
Link 
Link
This is my display tank.
http://www.4everb.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=32

If you follow the thread, you'll see that I designed every last square quarter-inch and iota of the system.  I had next to no experience in this hobby when I designed it.  I had never even glued PVC before.  I spent literally months researching online everything I needed to know, all the equipment, the specific dimensions of each component, the layout, everything.  It was intended to be as small a system as possible while still including a sump with refugium in the stand.  The near fitting-to-fitting plumbing is testament to my success.  You will also notice that I go against convention in a number of areas.  There is no equipment in the display tank.  My return lines pump water in at sand level.  I restrict my drain.  I control the waterline in my overflow.  I USE A CHECK VALVE!

What's my point?  As long as I trust my instincts and as long as I'm experimenting the way I know I want to, I am always pleased with my results.  The worst thing that could possible happen is I might need to go back to the drawing table.  As far as I'm concerned, that's just part of the fun.

It all works best for me tho, when those with experience can answer my questions.  So... moving on.

How do others normally remove the larvae from the kreisel?  Why don't others use snails to keep it clean?

Thank you.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

Looks like a nice system.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

 
Copepods. That or dry food. Sorry, but BBS grosses me out.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

 
Usually there's a hole in the top or the top is cut so that a piece is removeable. I use snails and other inverts in tanks, but more in the post-meta, growout phase. Depending on the invert (amphipods, I'm looking at you here), they can be a danger to the larvae directly or they might introduce problems (like hydroids) on their shells.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Link

Thanks.
 
Link

 
Link

What I mean to ask is what implement do others use to collect them without hurting them?

That's good to know about amphipods and snail shells.

This kreisel will be connected to a 2.5g brood tank via a nano overflow box.  That tank has not yet been put together, so I'll have the opertunity to closely control what gets in there, but man it seems tough to guard against every possible intruder.  How on earth can I put a piece of liverock in there without introducing all sorts of things?

Originally I was thinking of using my display tank water for water changes, but now that doesn't sound like a good idea.  Thoughts?

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

Any updates?

 
Most people don't use live rock. I wouldn't.


 
Lots of people use tank water, but I think that's playing with fire. I tend to let my larval tanks cycle on their own before I add larvae. It takes a long time so I have to keep more than one going all the time, but I think it's a better bet than fighting hydroids. I'm considering trying out bacterial starters for the larval tanks. I think they are a waste for display tanks (where time alone will get you all the nitrifying bacteria you'll ever need and you only have to do it once), but I can see using them to jump start a larval tank since you have to do it so often.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886