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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Monday, April 8, 2013 12:18 AM
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I was advised to thaw it slowly. Only takes a couple of hours in the fridge.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Monday, April 8, 2013 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Fishtal
I was advised to thaw it slowly. Only takes a couple of hours in the fridge. OK, fair enough. But is thawing it quickly going to make it lethal? I understand that there is a concern with these preserved algae products of "cell clumping", and perhaps a quick thawing method causes this "cell clumping", which may make the product less likely to stay in suspension, and/or less likely to be eaten by the rotifers, and in both cases, more likely to settle out and/or decompose. Perhaps the problem is as simple as that? Re-checking the Reed Mariculture website page for RotiGreen Omega here: http://www.reedmaricultur...ct_rotigreen_omega.php I don't see any instructions about thawing it, but I do note that it says, "May require special care when fish are inflating air bladder", which is interesting, but doesn't give me any actionable information. I wonder what that "special care" might be? I did check the pages for RotiGreen Nanno and RotiGreen Iso, and that air bladder caveat does not appear on those pages. Maybe this issue, whatever it is, is the problem I am encountering? I don't know exactly when Pseudochromis larvae inflate their air bladders, but *if* this is the issue, it might explain why the problem tends to stablilze, and the survivors of the first big die-off tend to stay alive? I don't really know -- it's just my conjecture. I chose RotiGreen Omega simply because it sounded like it had a better overall DHA/EPA/ARA balance, but perhaps I would be better off with just RotiGreen Nanno.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Monday, April 8, 2013 12:50 AM
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I'd check with Gresh to get the complete reasoning behind thawing methodology.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Monday, April 8, 2013 12:53 AM
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I'll draw his attention to this thread.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Monday, April 8, 2013 8:31 AM
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I seem to recall that Gresh said that the product begins to deteriorate after the first thaw, and the freezer life only refers to the product if it arrives frozen and is never thawed until use. I think the last order of this arrived frozen, but all previous ones arrived already liquid, as they warmed up during shipping. For the last one, I did thaw it, pour it into 3 oz travel bottles, and re-freeze. To use, just grab a bottle from the freezer and thaw in the fridge. Handy top allows dropwise administration. For a 15 gallon BRT, I've been using about 1 ml per day to keep rotifers in a decent population for my gobies. I am lighting 24/7, and I have some live isochrysis in there to hopefully mop up some ammonia, and I have a lawn of something green lining the tank, but what I don't seem to have at the moment is ammonia. The tank has been running for 2 weeks. I don't know, but I suspect you may be adding too much rotiGreen.
check out Kathy's Clowns, llc website: http://kathysclowns.com Captive bred clownfish and more (Wholesale to the trade.)
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Monday, April 8, 2013 2:55 PM
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Originally Posted by KathyL
I seem to recall that Gresh said that the product begins to deteriorate after the first thaw, and the freezer life only refers to the product if it arrives frozen and is never thawed until use. I think the last order of this arrived frozen, but all previous ones arrived already liquid, as they warmed up during shipping. For the last one, I did thaw it, pour it into 3 oz travel bottles, and re-freeze. To use, just grab a bottle from the freezer and thaw in the fridge. Handy top allows dropwise administration. For a 15 gallon BRT, I've been using about 1 ml per day to keep rotifers in a decent population for my gobies. I am lighting 24/7, and I have some live isochrysis in there to hopefully mop up some ammonia, and I have a lawn of something green lining the tank, but what I don't seem to have at the moment is ammonia. The tank has been running for 2 weeks. I don't know, but I suspect you may be adding too much rotiGreen. I'm afraid since I'm not exactly connected at the hip with Instant Algae products like I am Reef Nutrition and APBreed, that I only know what is told to me when I ask. Quite often I am behind the times and continue to repeat old information, like I did with the "don't aerate your rotifer cultures too much" bit years ago. Since this thread was emailed to our tech support email, we'll get the full download on best practices of handling these products. Give us a few days to respond though, things are hectic here right now with a massive IT upgrade.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Tuesday, April 16, 2013 2:11 AM
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It has been over a week since I updated this journal. No word yet from Reed, but I do think I have some additional information that makes me think my failures have nothing at all to do with their products, or how they are being handled by me. Book lovers, I have a new tome for you coming: There was another spawn last Monday, one week ago. That spawn hatched on Friday night. The whole hatch went into one BRT, filled with about 10 gallons of broodstock tank water. They were fed ample rotifers -- enough to give about 20/ml density in the BRT -- that had been grown were RGcomplete, and were nice and very dark green when sieved out of the rotifer culture. I tinted the BRT water very lightly this time with RotiGrow Omega, and all of the other parameters (air, light, temperature) were the same as the previous rotifer BRT. By the second day (Sunday), I already had massive die-off -- well over 50%. Similar to the previous die-off events, the survivors seemed to do fairly well, with relatively little die-off once the initial massacre is over. Now, the BRT used for this new batch is the same BRT as the one used for the previous rotifer batch. There just weren't enough of the previous rotifer BRT larvae left to be concerned with, and I needed the tub for the new hatch, so I sacrificed the few remaining larvae for the cause. Meanwhile, the larvae in the copepod BRT have certainly done better than the rotifer BRT larvae from the earlier hatch. I did still get a pretty big dieoff on the morning of Day 3 with them, though. I think in this case, one contributing factor was starvation -- they had eaten more or less all of the Parvocalanus I had fed them. Accordingly, I immediately started feeding them copious rotifers, too. I had virtually no more deaths in this BRT after that, until I started adding NHBBS (see below). Nonetheless, I do seem to be very consistently getting a very large dieoff somewhere between 36 and 60 hours post hatch, with very great consistency, with both my P. cyanotaenia and also the P. tapeinosoma hatches I've worked with. I'm starting to think there is something fundamentally flawed with my approach to larviculture that is the root cause of this. Now, bear in mind that although I have a big pile of MBI points and a shiny medal and all that -- most of what I got those points for are things other than conventional "fish larvae raised with rotifers and BBS in a BRT" kind of things. Heck, my clownfish success stories have been entirely unremarkable in terms of survival rates. So the first thing I need to acknowledge and learn from is that I have very little experience and even less success at basic larviculture. In fact, so far, it is pretty easy to construct an argument that I pretty much suck at it. I have spent a lot of the last week re-reading Moe's "Breeding the Orchid Dottyback" book, and in particular, Chapter 8, "The Great Run!". I have also done a lot of reading of the forum posts of others who have been successful at raising various species of dottybacks, both here on MBI and also on another moribund breeding forum. A few things stand out, for me (not in any particular order). First, the basic idea that proper DHA enrichment of foods is essential at certain stages of larval development for dottybacks. Without it, failure is almost guaranteed. Second, Moe's emphasis on the importance of really good nutrition during the first day or so being very key for long-term survival of the larvae. Third, the importance of introducing small amounts of NHBBS and/or enriched BBS early -- certainly by day 8 -- and then weaning the larvae off of rotifers and onto the larger food gradually over the next few days. Fourth, Moe's usage of "wild plankton" at various stages, primarily as a source of DHA enrichment (I think), but also as a source of larger food items, too. Fifth, the degree to which larvae, even several day old larvae are susceptible to various forms of "shock", including but not limited to the "shock" from dripping water and/or food in from too great a height, or any other mechanical disturbance. Sixth, is the emphasis on antibiotics to control bacterial growth, especially once Artemia are introduced. Seventh, is the importance of regular water changes to keep water quality high. Since I still have somewhere between 50 and 100 larvae from the copepod BRT batch described earlier in this journal, I have been working hard to apply the things I have learned to try to keep them alive. I have been doing roughly 15-25% water changes more or less daily for the last week (these should probably be larger still). When "dripping" in the WC water and/or more live Iso or diluted RotiGrow Omega, I have been submerging the drip line, placing it right below the airstone, to prevent any "drip, drip" shock, and to also maximize the degree to which the new water is being mixed with the old. I have been making sure that the water stays tinted with live Isochyrsis (high in DHA), while also adding something like about 10-15 drops per day of RotiGreen Omega, together with some ClorAm-X solution, at about a 2:1 ratio of CAX to RGO. I started adding NHBBS -- but VERY, VERY few -- on day 7, and have been enriching the BBS with Dan's Feed, hatching new BBS each day, and adding small but increasing amounts of both NHBBS and day-old enriched BBS, each day. I started adding Kanamycin at the same time as the Artemia, according to the instructions on the Kanamycin label. I did see the first deaths in several days right after adding the NHBBS. Today, at the end of Day 10, the remaining larvae (50 to maybe 100 of them, but more likely closer to 50) are larger and stronger than any I've ever seen at Day 10 before. I also added a bunch of Apocyclops and Parvocalanus this evening. Early last year, when the P. tapeinosoma were first hatching for me, I had a private email exchange with both Matts (Pedersen and Wittenrich), and I have also re-read that email thread this last week. A few things stand out from Dr. Wittenrich's comments. First, he suggested that early dieoff may be due to transfer stress in the handling of the eggs/larvae during hatch, and made some suggestions to more gently treat the eggs and newly hatched larvae to avoid transfer stress. Upon reflection, I think that perhaps my hatch induction method may be causing excessive "transfer stress", and may very well be the cause of my consistent massive dieoffs in the 36-60 hour period, despite numerous other variables. He also suggested that I could be exhausting them with excessive air through an airstone, and made the recommendation to have only a single bubble in the water column at once through an open-ended airline. This is a recommendation that I have not yet followed. I still have a lot to learn about more gently treating these delicate little souls entrusted to me! The parents have not yet spawned as of today, but have seemed "ready" for the last two days, so perhaps tomorrow is the next spawn day for them. I'm just hoping that they will continue to give me chances. Meanwhile, I don't have a lot of hope for the most recent batch -- I think I've doomed the survivors of the first big dieoff with excessive caution and just too little enrichment of their rotifers with too little RotiGreen Omega -- they are just looking too thin and weak to me. I'm cooking up a big batch of Parvocalanus, and also Apocyclops and Acartia in preparation for the next batch, though, and, as usual, have a plentiful supply of live Isochrysis. I'll also do everything I can to keep the momentum going with the 50-100 10 day olds I have right now, who are looking so good at the moment.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Saturday, April 20, 2013 1:10 AM
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Now, at 14 DPH, I still have about 25 or so larvae. The size range is rather striking -- some are very large, and some are still relatively quite small, and others spread out in between. I've been feeding them NHBBS and Enriched BBS a couple of times a day. I stopped supplementing rotifers about two days ago. I've been doing water changes of between 25 and 50 percent every day or every other day, depending on my time constraints. Adding Kanamycin daily. Adding about 10 to 15 drops of RotiGreen Omega + ClorAm-X solution and a modest amount of live Isochrysis with the water changes. I have also been feeding them as many Apocyclops as I can come up with for them about every other day. I seem to have missed a spawn this week -- on Saturday and Sunday, the male was flashing his glowing colors, and the female looked really plump, but whenever I opened the gate, no joy. By Monday, she was thin again, and the male was drab again, but I never saw any eggs. She is looking plump again now, and the male is starting to glow again, so maybe I'll get another spawn this weekend.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Saturday, April 20, 2013 7:52 PM
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The female was plump, and hanging out at the divider, and the male was flashing his bright colors, and also hanging out at the divider today, so at about 11:00 AM, I opened the gate, and within just a few seconds, both were in the male's PVC "den of love". After about 20 minutes, they had finished spawning, and once again, the female did not leave the egg ball in the PVC cave, but, rather, it came attached ever so slightly to her, so that it ended up on the bottom of the tank on the male's side. The male and I have an established ritual now, since this happens every time: I gently pick up the egg ball with a turkey baster, just holding it in the end of the baster tube, instead of sucking it up into the tube, and I wave it around at the entrance to the PVC cave. The male then grabs it, and with a very gentle squeeze, I release it to him, and he then places it at the back of the cave where it belongs.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Saturday, April 20, 2013 9:00 PM
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Originally Posted by JimWelsh
Originally Posted by Fishtal
I was advised to thaw it slowly. Only takes a couple of hours in the fridge. OK, fair enough. But is thawing it quickly going to make it lethal? I understand that there is a concern with these preserved algae products of "cell clumping", and perhaps a quick thawing method causes this "cell clumping", which may make the product less likely to stay in suspension, and/or less likely to be eaten by the rotifers, and in both cases, more likely to settle out and/or decompose. Perhaps the problem is as simple as that? Re-checking the Reed Mariculture website page for RotiGreen Omega here: http://www.reedmaricultur...ct_rotigreen_omega.php I don't see any instructions about thawing it, but I do note that it says, "May require special care when fish are inflating air bladder", which is interesting, but doesn't give me any actionable information. I wonder what that "special care" might be? I did check the pages for RotiGreen Nanno and RotiGreen Iso, and that air bladder caveat does not appear on those pages. Maybe this issue, whatever it is, is the problem I am encountering? I don't know exactly when Pseudochromis larvae inflate their air bladders, but *if* this is the issue, it might explain why the problem tends to stablilze, and the survivors of the first big die-off tend to stay alive? I don't really know -- it's just my conjecture. I chose RotiGreen Omega simply because it sounded like it had a better overall DHA/EPA/ARA balance, but perhaps I would be better off with just RotiGreen Nanno. Swim bladder issue is the oil slick that can be seen on the surface with the Omega product. Thawing issue, you nailed it. More likely to clump if thawed quickly. Clumps are not eaten by rots and add to over all waste.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Sunday, April 21, 2013 2:55 AM
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Thank you, Grehsam, although I think at this point that my main issues have more to do with early handling of the larvae, as stated above, rather than any issues with feeds, since I have had similar mortality at about 48 hours with both the RotiGreen Omega larvae and the copepod/live Isochrysis larvae. Nonetheless, I'll take the Reed product handling into account in the future. Thanks again!
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Sunday, April 21, 2013 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWelsh
The male and I have an established ritual now, since this happens every time: I gently pick up the egg ball with a turkey baster, just holding it in the end of the baster tube, instead of sucking it up into the tube, and I wave it around at the entrance to the PVC cave. The male then grabs it, and with a very gentle squeeze, I release it to him, and he then places it at the back of the cave where it belongs. This is quite cute!
Originally Posted by JimWelsh
Early last year, when the P. tapeinosoma were first hatching for me, I had a private email exchange with both Matts (Pedersen and Wittenrich), and I have also re-read that email thread this last week. A few things stand out from Dr. Wittenrich's comments. First, he suggested that early dieoff may be due to transfer stress in the handling of the eggs/larvae during hatch, and made some suggestions to more gently treat the eggs and newly hatched larvae to avoid transfer stress. Upon reflection, I think that perhaps my hatch induction method may be causing excessive "transfer stress", and may very well be the cause of my consistent massive dieoffs in the 36-60 hour period, despite numerous other variables. He also suggested that I could be exhausting them with excessive air through an airstone, and made the recommendation to have only a single bubble in the water column at once through an open-ended airline. This is a recommendation that I have not yet followed. Jim, this is very interesting, and I think this is the trouble I am having with my P fridmani larvae. A person would think the culture methods would be quite similar for the two. Have you had any success with other Pseudochromis? If I remember correctly, you didn't have complete success with P tapeinosoma...?
Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Sunday, April 21, 2013 12:31 PM
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Actually, I've had similar failure with both species of Pseudochromis that I've worked with. I'm expecting another hatch on Wednesday night, so I'll get a chance to try a more gentle hatch approach, and see how that goes.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Tuesday, April 23, 2013 1:16 AM
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Last night, on Day 16, I noticed a large number of the remaining larvae were "nosing" into either the side and/or the bottom of the BRT. I don't know what the cause of this was. I thought it might be that the water was not "green" enough, so I did a water change, and dripped in more RotiGreen Omega and also more live Isochrysis. I also reduced the light, and even went so far as to give them their first "night" with the lights off on the BRT ever since hatch. I awoke to a large dieoff. Many dead larvae, many of them some of the larger ones, on the bottom of the BRT. I do still have perhaps 10 or so alive. I have added some Tigriopus today, and even noticed at least one larvae with a very dark gut this evening, which I interpret as it eating the Tigriopus. The remaining live larvae still are acting very sketchy, and very "afraid" of the light. I continue to keep them in subdued light, and I am dripping in more RotiGreen Omega + ChlorAm-X + Live Iso tonight. At the very least, I have gotten some of them to 17 days. It appears that I might have some still alive tomorrow, which will be 18 days, which is 5 days longer than I have gotten any dottybacks before. The male is tending the egg mass in his cave nicely, and I still anticipate a nice hatch on Wednesday night.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Tuesday, April 23, 2013 9:28 PM
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Jim, the way your light is setup can they get away from it if they choose? Like, light half of it only? That way they can choose their lighting.
Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Tuesday, April 23, 2013 11:25 PM
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Yes, the light is over just one half of the tank. Re-reading Moe's "Breeding the Orchid Dottyback" today, it appears that they are likely just becoming more benthic as meta approaches. Unlike yesterday, this morning there were no new dead larvae. I still have around 10 remaining. Most of them are hanging out near the bottom and/or the sides of the BRT. Some of the larger ones tend to do "laps" around the BRT -- strangely, all of them in a counter-clockwise direction -- and appear to be quite strong, and have noticeable dark guts, presumably from the Tigriopus. There are plenty of BBS, which are kept enriched by the greenwater, and I also added some more Dan's Feed enriched BBS this morning. The Tigriopus are plentiful, and are most prevalent near the bottom and sides, which may be part of the reason the larvae are hanging out there. The larger ones are taking on a pinkish/purplish hue reminiscent of the color of the adult females. I seem to recall reading in various journals that meta in Pseudochromis tends to be at around 28 days, but Moe was reporting it starting as early as day 20 for his P. fridmani "Great Run!". I need to read some more Psuedochromis journals, and probably need to give them some PVC pipes now to hide in.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Friday, April 26, 2013 12:54 PM
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Day 21 now for the 4/5/2013 hatch. I counted 8 this morning -- a lot better than counting 0! They are very much hugging the bottom and the sides, with an occasional larger one venturing out into the water column a bit. They all have a dull pinkish/purplish hue. None really look to me like they've started meta yet (though I don't know exactly what I'm looking for in Pseudochromis yet for signs of meta -- I'm told I'll know it when I see it). I fed them a bunch of Tigriopus a few days ago, and the Tigriopus are more or less self-sustaining at this point. I do add a few enriched BBS daily, too. I'm pretty sure they are eating the copepods more than the BBS. EDIT: I did a small water change today, and examined some of the water I removed, and found plentiful Apocyclops, some Acartia, and even some Parvocalanus -- I forgot to mention that I also added some of each of those a few days ago, too, and they seem to also be plentiful in the water column. The hatch Wednesday night turned out to be a total disaster. I decided I wanted to try a more gentle hatching approach, so I used a 250 ml Ernlenmeyer flask with a rigid airline, like what was documented in Figure 3 here (scroll down just a bit): http://www.advancedaquari...8/10/breeder#section-8 and that hatching technique did work very well, and did seem much more gentle that what I had done in the past. The "disaster" I think, stemmed from the fact that I had too many water parameters too different from the parent tank water: I added a bunch of copepods together with their culture water to the BRT before hatching. The copepod culture water is very clean, but at a significantly lower SG than the parent tank water. I also added a decent amount of live Isochrysis prior to hatching, which would have raised the pH. I also added a very large number of enriched rotifers -- perhaps too many, and maybe they consumed all the oxygen? At any rate, I awoke to 100% mortality. I sure do suck at this!
<message edited by JimWelsh on Friday, April 26, 2013 2:11 PM>
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Friday, April 26, 2013 7:29 PM
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Don't beat yourself up. Sometimes they just don't hatch well, and there is nothing you could have done.
check out Kathy's Clowns, llc website: http://kathysclowns.com Captive bred clownfish and more (Wholesale to the trade.)
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Tuesday, May 7, 2013 1:23 PM
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After waiting, and waiting, and then waiting some more, I FINALLY have some signs of settlement, starting yesterday, at 31 days! A couple of them started developing a much more reddish/maroon color, and stopped swimming fast laps, and began hunting off of the bottom and the sides, and started being interested in the PVC pipes and elbows. I haven't lost any in well over a week . For the last week, all of them have been racing around the BRT, doing fast laps, with only very momentary pauses to strike at a copepod or BBS. Strangely, they all ALWAYS go counterclockwise, making constant left-hand turns (they must all be race car drivers)! The largest ones are now finally bucking that trend as they start to settle. Checking this morning, there is at least one that I'm calling settled, since it is definitely taking up residence in one of the PVC pipes. As much time as they have been spending racing around, they somehow have still been managing to more or less clear the BRT of the enriched BBS regularly. I've been adding more enriched BBS twice daily. I have also been doing some water changes, but not so regularly -- 25-30% every 2-3 days. I add more live Iso when I do the water changes, but no more RotiGreen or Kanamycin. The water is staying nice and "green" (really rather brown) from the Iso. The Tigriopus, Acartia, and Apocyclops populations are staying high, although I have had to add some more Tigriopus, as they seem to be the favorite food of the largest larvae. Curiously, when I scoop out a beaker of water to examine the zooplankton population, I am seeing more Acartia than I am Apocyclops, which is not what I would expect. The parents continue to attempt to spawn, but I've had no joy, since every time the female is really ripe and ready, when I open the gate between them, the male gets overly excited, and comes over onto the female's side, which then makes her angry, so she starts to attack him, and then when he retreats, if she ventures onto his side, he alternates between leading her to his cave and attacking her, and they just get plain mean to each other. I've tried giving them opportunities at various times of the day, but they still haven't worked things out. Each time, I end up finding the eggs on her side, often being eaten by her, or hung up on the zip ties holding her PVC cave tubes together. One reliable way to tell when she is ready to spawn, aside from her full belly visibly white with eggs, is the male's dramatic change in color. I'll have to post a picture of that soon, because it really is dramatic to see. His eyes even glow so brightly, you can see it from across the room!
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pseudochromis cyanotaenia
Tuesday, May 7, 2013 3:12 PM
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It is very hard to get a good image of the male when he is showing his colors, because he is always really excited, and moving very quickly when that is happening. I have to use the flash, which creates problems of its own, but here is one shot of him that doesn't really do justice to how bright he gets, but you might be able to get the idea. Sorry for the dirty tank.
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