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Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Sunday, January 10, 2010 4:10 PM
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Breeding Journal DataSheet
This first post should be updated regularly to include new information as events take place or changes are made to your system General Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal) Social Structure: 4 individuals ( WC ) After a couple weeks it was down to 2 Size of Individuals: Nickel size Age of Individuals: Unknown Date added to Tank: 1/9/2010 Broodstock Tank Details Size of Tank: 190 Gallon Reef Tank Substrate Details: DSB of washed silica sand and laterite Filtration Details: System is connected to my main display system which is filtered with an oversize skimmer and several types of Refugium. Water Changes: 40 Gallons every 3 weeks Water Temperature: 78 Lighting: 2) 250 MH & 2) T5 Actinic Lighting Cycle: T5 10 hours, MH 5 hours Other Tank Inhabitants: Broodstock Feeding Details Food Types: Frozen Brine Shrimp, Frozen food, pellets, flakes Feeding Schedule: 2 to 3 times daily Spawning Details Date of First Spawn: Not exactly sure. I believe Nov 2010 Spawn Time of Day: I've never observed the spawn Dates of Consecutive Spawns: Early Jan, ~Feb 15 CourtShip Details: Not Observed Egg Size: Difficult to see but they are large at least 1.5 mm Egg Color: Appear to be a bit orangish Egg Count: ~20 or so Hatch Details Hatch Date: 3/8/11 Hatch Time of Day: Unknown # Days after Spawn: 20 Larve Description: Direct Developers. the young look just like minature adults but much paler. Must be the lack of light exposure Larval Tank Details Temperature: 76-78°F Size of Larval Tank: 10 Gal Standard tank Substrate Details: Sand/Crushed Oyster Shell Other Tank Decor: Small pieces of LR Filtration Details: Just the LR and sand. Lighting: Tank is in the same room as display and gets light from there. Lighting Cycle: 11 hours on. Water Changes: Swap water out with the display tank every couple days. Larval Feeding Details Food Types: Otohime A1, Frozen Cyclopeeze Feeding Schedule: 2-3 times daily Metamorphosis/Settlement Date of Settlement Start: 3/10/11 Days after Hatch: 2 Date of Settlement End: 3/10/11 Description of Fry: Look like tiny adults. Grow-Out Tank Details Temperature: 78 Size of Grow-Out Tank: Stardard 10 gal Substrate Details: Sand, crushed oyster shell Other Tank Decor: about 1/3 of the tank is LR Filtration Details: Just the LR and water exchanges with the display tank Lighting: No light directly over the tank. Just light from the MH and T5 over the display Lighting Cycle: 10 hours of T5, 4-5 hours of MH Water Changes: 30% to 50% ever 3-4 days or so, Water is exchanged with display Size at Transfer: 2-3mm Age at Transfer: at settlement when the male was made to spit out the fry Grow-Out Feeding Details Food Types: Otohime A , Then moving to B1 and TDO C1, Spectrum Pellets, Cyclopeeze Pellets, Hikari Marine-S Occasional feedings of frozen Cyclopeeze. Feeding Schedule: 2-3 times per day Additional Information Purchased 4 Wild Caught individuals about nickel size to hopefully get at least one M/F pair. Started feeding 3-4 times daily to speed growth and begin conditioning.
<message edited by cmpenney on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 7:13 PM>
Chad Penney - MBI Council Agis quod Adis
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Sunday, January 10, 2010 4:15 PM
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Here is the picture of the tanks:  Top tank will contain the Brood stock along with with Nassarius snails and seagrasses. The bottom tank is where thefry will be moved. My hope is to have high enough Pod density in the bottom tank to skip the need for Baby Brine Shrimp.
Chad Penney - MBI Council Agis quod Adis
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Sunday, January 10, 2010 4:17 PM
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Some of the seagrass has been added to the tank: 
Chad Penney - MBI Council Agis quod Adis
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Sunday, January 10, 2010 4:18 PM
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Here are the four Banggai I purchased to hopefully get a pair out of: 
Chad Penney - MBI Council Agis quod Adis
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:15 PM
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All of them are eating Brine Shrimp like gang busters and are taking some frozen foods. Also saw one take a small pellet without spitting it out. I'm going to work on getting them all on to a frozen and pellet/flake food.
I've been watching to see how they interact as well. So far the largest of the four seems to hang out by itself most of the time however it leaves all the others alone and no one seems to bother it at all. The other three are almost the exact same size. Of those three I have already noticed that one of them seems to get chased for a short time every now and again by the other two. I'll need to keep an eye on that and if it continues to get worse he may be the first one out.
Chad Penney - MBI Council Agis quod Adis
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Monday, January 11, 2010 12:17 PM
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At Tal's suggestion I'm attempting to up the temp in the tank from 78° to 80-82°. Since this is a flow through..A slow flow through maybe, but a flow through just the same...I'm not sure just how much luck I'll have but I'm trying.
I feed them this morning and they came right up to the front glass as soon as they saw me to get fed. This meal was just frozen food no Brine Shrimp this time.
Chad Penney - MBI Council Agis quod Adis
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Tuesday, January 12, 2010 5:07 PM
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Well I came home to only three fish in the tank! The tank is almost completely covered so it was highly unlikely that the missing fish jumped.
After looking around...Sure enough, some how the stupid fish managed to make it into the overflow.
I just quickly netted him and put him back in the tank. I'm not sure if it got chased and went into the overflow or was just not paying attention where it was going and got sucked in.
I will have to keep a better eye on them and see if there is some aggression starting.
Chad Penney - MBI Council Agis quod Adis
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Wednesday, January 13, 2010 6:26 AM
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I believe he got chased in there. When I was pairing another Pair that kept happening to me they would jump into the Overflow. I watched him carefully for the next couple of days and witnessed him being chased. Removed him and Now I got another pair, but no new babies yet.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Wednesday, January 13, 2010 7:29 PM
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It is apparent now that was the case. When I went down this morning to give them their first feeding that one I fished out of the overflow was in pretty bad shape. He had obviously been picked on and wasn't doing so well.
I moved it to another tank but when I got home he hadn't made it. So now I'm down to 3...I guess I need to do a better job of watching them for agression.
Chad Penney - MBI Council Agis quod Adis
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Thursday, January 14, 2010 5:33 AM
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 Originally Posted by cmpenney
It is apparent now that was the case. When I went down this morning to give them their first feeding that one I fished out of the overflow was in pretty bad shape. He had obviously been picked on and wasn't doing so well.
I moved it to another tank but when I got home he hadn't made it. So now I'm down to 3...I guess I need to do a better job of watching them for agression.
I can guarantee you that means you have a pair going. So now you might have one male and two females keep an eye on who's hanging together and playing nice together.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Thursday, January 14, 2010 7:08 AM
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I watched them for awhile last night. There are two that seem to hang out in the water column and one that seems to just stay to him/herself by the heater.
I didn't see any aggression directed toward or coming from the loner at this point, but if it continues to stay by itself I'll probably pull him/her tonight.
Chad Penney - MBI Council Agis quod Adis
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Thursday, January 14, 2010 8:01 PM
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Here is the loner that is always hanging out in the back by itself. This one isn't eating as well as the other two..I goes after food but spits out anything but live brine.  he will be moved to my display tank tonight. These are the two that I think are a pair together. They both hang out near the front of the tank together most of the time waiting for food and both eat really well.  Here are a couple closeups of the two that I believe are a pair. First the bigger of two:  And next the smaller but certainly the bolder of them:  You can see both have nice round bellies. They both are eating mysids and brine shrimp like gang busters.
Chad Penney - MBI Council Agis quod Adis
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Thursday, January 14, 2010 8:27 PM
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The one in the first pic needs food, looks skinny. In the second pic, the one in the back looks like the male to me... no expert though.
Hint: look at the "pair" closely and see if either of them has differing spots on the tail or fins... that's the only way I can really tell who is the male if he's not holding.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Thursday, January 14, 2010 8:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Fishtal
The one in the first pic needs food, looks skinny. He's not eating anything but BS which I can't feed in high enough amounts for him to get enough with the other two pigs in the tank! He goes after the mysids but just spits them.
Chad Penney - MBI Council Agis quod Adis
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Friday, January 15, 2010 6:08 PM
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Saturday, January 16, 2010 10:51 AM
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It's a good read. Thanks Tal.
I think what I'd really like to get is the H. ovalis. As far as I've been able to tell this is a Pacific only species and we just rarely see seagrasses imported from the Pacific. Most of the ones we see in the hobby come from Florida and sometimes Texas.
Chad Penney - MBI Council Agis quod Adis
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Saturday, January 16, 2010 3:31 PM
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Well I lost the loner last night so that leaves me with just the pair now. Both do seem to be health and are eating well though so hopefully I don't lose either of these.
Chad Penney - MBI Council Agis quod Adis
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Wednesday, January 20, 2010 7:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Fishtal
The one in the first pic needs food, looks skinny. In the second pic, the one in the back looks like the male to me... no expert though.
Hint: look at the "pair" closely and see if either of them has differing spots on the tail or fins... that's the only way I can really tell who is the male if he's not holding.
There is no real way to tell from spots or other normal characteristics on the fish if its male or female. I've got 100 of these guys in my basement and there is no way to tell who is who without looking for aggression. If you think you can I would be more than willing to invite you over to identify them for me!  Chad they still look a little Young yet to be pairing up, buy I may be wrong its hard to tell size from photos.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Wednesday, January 20, 2010 12:11 PM
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They do look young yet. They may not be pairing up but they get along real well so my hope is I have a male and female.
Chad Penney - MBI Council Agis quod Adis
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Wednesday, January 20, 2010 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Aquatic Aquaman
Originally Posted by Fishtal
The one in the first pic needs food, looks skinny. In the second pic, the one in the back looks like the male to me... no expert though.
Hint: look at the "pair" closely and see if either of them has differing spots on the tail or fins... that's the only way I can really tell who is the male if he's not holding.
There is no real way to tell from spots or other normal characteristics on the fish if its male or female. I've got 100 of these guys in my basement and there is no way to tell who is who without looking for aggression. If you think you can I would be more than willing to invite you over to identify them for me! Chad they still look a little Young yet to be pairing up, buy I may be wrong its hard to tell size from photos. I didn't mean that you could sex them with the spots but if they are spotted differently you would be able to tell them apart after you get a spawning event. I got my pair at MACNA and they were pretty small (ORA juvenile size) and their first spawn event was around Halloween.
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