Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)

General
Species: Pterapogon kauderni (Banggai Cardinal)
Social Structure: 4 individuals ( WC )  After a couple weeks it was down to 2
Size of Individuals: Nickel size
Age of Individuals: Unknown
Date added to Tank: 1/9/2010

Broodstock Tank Details
Size of Tank: 190 Gallon Reef Tank 
Substrate Details: DSB of washed silica sand and laterite
Filtration Details: System is connected to my main display system which is filtered with an oversize skimmer and several types of Refugium.
Water Changes: 40 Gallons every 3 weeks
Water Temperature: 78
Lighting:  2) 250 MH & 2) T5 Actinic   
Lighting Cycle: T5 10 hours, MH 5 hours
Other Tank Inhabitants:

Broodstock Feeding Details
Food Types:  Frozen Brine Shrimp, Frozen food, pellets, flakes
Feeding Schedule: 2 to 3 times daily

Spawning Details
Date of First Spawn: Not exactly sure. I believe Nov 2010
Spawn Time of Day: I've never observed the spawn
Dates of Consecutive Spawns: Early Jan, ~Feb 15
CourtShip Details: Not Observed
Egg Size: Difficult to see but they are large at least 1.5 mm
Egg Color: Appear to be a bit orangish
Egg Count: ~20 or so

Hatch Details
Hatch Date: 3/8/11
Hatch Time of Day: Unknown
# Days after Spawn: 20
Larve Description: Direct Developers. the young look just like minature adults but much paler. Must be the lack of light exposure


Larval Tank Details
Temperature: 76-78°F
Size of Larval Tank: 10 Gal Standard tank
Substrate Details: Sand/Crushed Oyster Shell
Other Tank Decor: Small pieces of LR
Filtration Details: Just the LR and sand.
Lighting: Tank is in the same room as display and gets light from there.
Lighting Cycle: 11 hours on.
Water Changes: Swap water out with the display tank every couple days.

Larval Feeding Details
Food Types: Otohime A1, Frozen Cyclopeeze
Feeding Schedule: 2-3 times daily

Metamorphosis/Settlement
Date of Settlement Start: 3/10/11
Days after Hatch: 2
Date of Settlement End: 3/10/11
Description of Fry: Look like tiny adults.

Grow-Out Tank Details
Temperature: 78
Size of Grow-Out Tank: Stardard 10 gal
Substrate Details: Sand, crushed oyster shell
Other Tank Decor:  about 1/3 of the tank is LR
Filtration Details: Just the LR and water exchanges with the display tank
Lighting: No light directly over the tank. Just light from the MH and T5 over the display
Lighting Cycle: 10 hours of T5, 4-5 hours of MH
Water Changes: 30% to 50% ever 3-4 days or so, Water is exchanged with display
Size at Transfer: 2-3mm
Age at Transfer: at settlement when the male was made to spit out the fry

Grow-Out Feeding Details
Food Types: Otohime A , Then moving to B1 and TDO C1, Spectrum Pellets, Cyclopeeze Pellets, Hikari Marine-S Occasional feedings of frozen Cyclopeeze.
Feeding Schedule: 2-3 times per day

Additional Information
Purchased 4 Wild Caught individuals about nickel size to hopefully get at least one M/F pair. Started feeding 3-4 times daily to speed growth and begin conditioning.






Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

Here is the picture of the tanks:


Top tank will contain the Brood stock along with with Nassarius snails and seagrasses. The bottom tank is where thefry will be moved. My hope is to have high enough Pod density in the bottom tank to skip the need for Baby Brine Shrimp.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

Some of the seagrass has been added to the tank:

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

Here are the four Banggai I purchased to hopefully get a pair out of:

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

All of them are eating Brine Shrimp like gang busters and are taking some frozen foods. Also saw one take a small pellet without spitting it out. I'm going to work on getting them all on to a frozen and pellet/flake food. 

I've been watching to see how they interact as well. So far the largest of the four seems to hang out by itself most of the time however it leaves all the others alone and no one seems to bother it at all. The other three are almost the exact same size. Of those three I have already noticed that one of them seems to get chased for a short time every now and again by the other two.  I'll need to keep an eye on that and if it continues to get worse he may be the first one out.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

At Tal's suggestion I'm attempting to up the temp in the tank from 78° to 80-82°. Since this is a flow through..A slow flow through maybe, but a flow through just the same...I'm not sure just how much luck I'll have but I'm trying.

 
I feed them this morning and they came right up to the front glass as soon as they saw me to get fed. This meal was just frozen food no Brine Shrimp this time.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

Well I came home to only three fish in the tank! The tank is almost completely covered so it was highly unlikely that the missing fish jumped.

After looking around...Sure enough, some how the stupid fish managed to make it into the overflow.

I just quickly netted him and put him back in the tank. I'm not sure if it got chased and went into the overflow or was just not paying attention where it was going and got sucked in.

I will have to keep a better eye on them and see if there is some aggression starting.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

I believe he got chased in there.  When I was pairing another Pair that kept happening to me they would jump into the Overflow.  I watched him carefully for the next couple of days and witnessed him being chased.  Removed him and Now I got another pair, but no new babies yet.

Toledo Reef Aquarium Club
Web Administrator
www.TracCentral.org

It is apparent now that was the case. When I went down this morning to give them their first feeding that one I fished out of the overflow was in pretty bad shape. He had obviously been picked on and wasn't doing so well.

I moved it to another tank but when I got home he hadn't made it. So now I'm down to 3...I guess I need to do a better job of watching them for agression.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

I can guarantee you that means you have a pair going.  So now you might have one male and two females keep an eye on who's hanging together and playing nice together.

Toledo Reef Aquarium Club
Web Administrator
www.TracCentral.org

I watched them for awhile last night. There are two that seem to hang out in the water column and one that seems to just stay to him/herself by the heater.

I didn't see any aggression directed toward or coming from the loner at this point, but if it continues to stay by itself I'll probably pull him/her tonight.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

Here is the loner that is always hanging out in the back by itself. This one isn't eating as well as the other two..I goes after food but spits out anything but live brine.

he will be moved to my display tank tonight.
 
These are the two that I think are a pair together. They both hang out near the front of the tank together most of the time waiting for food and both eat really well.

 
 
Here are a couple closeups of the two that I believe are a pair. First the bigger of two:

 
And next the smaller but certainly the bolder of them:

 
 
You can see both have nice round bellies. They both are eating mysids and brine shrimp like gang busters.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

The one in the first pic needs food, looks skinny.  In the second pic, the one in the back looks like the male to me... no expert though.

Hint: look at the "pair" closely and see if either of them has differing spots on the tail or fins... that's the only way I can really tell who is the male if he's not holding.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

 
He's not eating anything but BS which I can't feed in high enough amounts for him to get enough with the other two pigs in the tank!
 
He goes after the mysids but just spits them.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

Found you an interesting paper on seagrass beds in the Red Sea: 
http://cmstest.jcu.edu.au/actfr/idc/groups/public/documents/journal_article/jcudev_015628.pdf

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

It's a good read. Thanks Tal.

I think what I'd really like to get is the H. ovalis. As far as I've been able to tell this is a Pacific only species and we just rarely see seagrasses imported from the Pacific. Most of the ones we see in the hobby come from Florida and sometimes Texas.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

Well I lost the loner last night so that leaves me with just the pair now. Both do seem to be health and are eating well though so hopefully I don't lose either of these.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

There is no real way to tell from spots or other normal characteristics on the fish if its male or female.  I've got 100 of these guys in my basement and there is no way to tell who is who without looking for aggression.  If you think you can I would be more than willing to invite you over to identify them for me!

Chad they still look a little Young yet to be pairing up, buy I may be wrong its hard to tell size from photos.

Toledo Reef Aquarium Club
Web Administrator
www.TracCentral.org

They do look young yet. They may not be pairing up but they get along real well so my hope is I have a male and female.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

I didn't mean that you could sex them with the spots but if they are spotted differently you would be able to tell them apart after you get a spawning event.  

I got my pair at MACNA and they were pretty small (ORA juvenile size) and their first spawn event was around Halloween.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

I moved this pair to a large tub with a bunch of LR piled on one end and the Seagrass and sandbed on the other. I did get them to spawn as I found two small cardinals in the a connected tank in Dec of 2010. However I ended up losing the pair most likely to aiptasia that started to overrun the tank.
 

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

Here are some pictures of the babies that i found in the display tank in early Dec.
 

 

 
You can see the discussion created when I discovered them here: http://www.mbisite.org/Forums/tm.aspx?m=46853

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

Here are some pictures of the tub that the parents were moved into:
 




 

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

Looking good in there, Chad. My tubs never look that nice, I'm afraid.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Except for all the aiptasia and bubble algae!

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

So I decided to tear down the display to get the processing of moving everything around and needed to catch the two babies out...The problem....As I started to try catching the two babies in the tank I found 5 more!

 









 

These guys are tiny. Probably not much more than a week or so old so that means that the parents must still be alive and breeding in my system someplace. I di actively search once again fro some sign of the parents in the tub downstairs or any sign of other babies anywhere in the tanks with no luck.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

Last night just before lights out I decided to go down and take one more look in that tub.. This time I didn't turn any of the room lights on and moved very slowly up to the tank. I stayed back a bit so the light over the tub didn't shine directly on me and sure enough under the eggcrate there was a large adult Bangaii!  As soon as I got close enough that the light shined on me so that I was visible above the water it darted away into the rock again and was gone.
 
So it appears that the parents are still in there and by the looks of the one I saw eating quite well. It's important to note that the only food I have been throwing in the tub is pellet food which they ARE NOT eating. I have never seen them take the pellet food and really for that matter don't even see them when feeding. So they are living solely off the pods and worms that are naturally occuring in the tub.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

Stopped at the LFS this evening and got some frozen brine shrimp. Since they don't have a 200 gal hunting ground any more I figure I should try to feed them something. When I got home I noticed that only two of the smaller ones were still in the isolation chamber and I could only see one outside of it. After a quick scan I was horrified to see one of the little ones in the tank below swimming just inches away from a carpet anemone and a 4" Clarkii clown. Luckily I was able to quickly catch him out without incident and I dug up an even finer strianer for the overflow and some adapters to install it. I hope to never have to see that again!

 

Anyways back the feeding....I threw in a few small bits of the forzen brine shrimp and watched what happened. The older two went right after the full size pieces with out problem. The younger ones showed interest but the size was an issue. I took another small bit and smooshed it up with my fingers in the water to create some smaller bits and then I did see them strike at the little pieces.

 

So at least they are getting something to eat. Just need to keep things going.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

I'm down to three of the small ones now. One disappeared probably into the overflow(I had to make some more modifications) and I found another dea on the bottom of the tank a few days later.
 
I'm bound and determined to find a protocol for these guys that does not require the culturing of any food. Right now I'm feeding them just Otohime A and frozen cyclopeeze 3 times a day. They are in a tank with a pretty decent amount of LR and the heavy feedings are helping the pod population in the tank which I'm certain the babies are making use of.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

The tub that I had going was crazy. I would find bristle worm larvae and others in the plankton all the time. The tank did get some natural sunlight and certainly had plenty of algae--of the gross variety--going. Algae seems to be key. All the little creatures survive in, around, and by consuming it. My suggestion would be to set up a fish-only with LR tub for them and let the algae go nuts. The LR will supply the food cultures and the algae will supply filtration and food for the kids.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

So far so good. I still have the three little ones and other than whatever pods they are finding in the tank I'm only feeding them a diet of Otohime A and frozen Cyclopeeze.
 
So far so good. I'm getting ready to shut down the tanks in the basemenet and will be moving them to the upstairs display after the weekend. 
 
I'm also going to need to move the brood stock up there which I'm not thrilled about because I'm going to need to get them back out come spring when I get things back up and running down there.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

Otohime A?
 

Rook

Not sure what your asking?
Are you  asking what Otohime is or are yu surprised I'm feeding it to Bangers?

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

Yes
 

Rook

Otohime is pretty decent fish food, available graded for size at sizes that are significantly smaller than regular fish food. Reed's sells it.
 
You can get basically the same thing if you take a decent pellet food, pulverise it, and run it through sieves of various sizes. That's a lot of work, though.
 
(BTW, Oto A seems really small for Banger larvae. Are they taking it well?)

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Yeah it is on the small size, but the little guys are eating it. If you look at it in the water it is about the size of a small copepod. B might be better in the near future I'm sure but when I had the Clarkii larvae I bought the big bag of the Otohime A so I have plenty of it.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

Well I fear that I've lost my babies
I returned from our weekend vacation and was not able to find any of the babies in the tank. It is possible that all or some are still in the tank somewhere but I threw all sorts of food at the tank when I got home last night and never saw any of them.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

Too bad. Sorry, Chad. I hope some make it.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

So far no luck.. I left the vortech on while I was gone which probably pureed the poor little guys.. It's also possible that they went over the overflow.
 
I'm feeding the parents more heavily than before, which isn't hard since I wasn't really feeding them at all. Hopfully I'll get another spawn soon and this time I'll be able to get documentation of the event.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

Sorry to hear that you lost them Chad!  Good luck getting another spawn.