Breeding Journal, Species: Amphiprion percula "Onyx"

General
Species: Amphiprion pecula "Onyx"
Social Structure: male female pair
Size of Individuals: Female almost 3", male 2"
Age of Individuals: unknown, wild caught
Date added to Tank: June 20th, 2005

Broodstock Tank Details
Size of Tank: 24 gallon nanocube
Substrate Details: Live sand
Filtration Details: stock nanocube filtration
Water Changes: 25% weekly
Water Temperature: 78-80F
Lighting: stock 50/50 power compacts
Lighting Cycle: 12 hours on, on timer
Other Tank Inhabitants: many other fish over the years....

Broodstock Feeding Details
Food Types: They eat everything.  Pellets, Flakes, Frozen, Mysis, Brine, Cyclopeze, Squid, you name it.
Feeding Schedule: at least 2-3 times per day.

Spawning Details
Date of First Spawn: 9/22/2006
Spawn Time of Day: afternoon
Dates of Consecutive Spawns: too many to mention.  They spawn roughly every 3 weeks in general, and have done so now for years.
CourtShip Details: Female joins in nest cleaning the day of spawning.
Egg Size: 3 mm in length roughly?
Egg Color: bright orange
Egg Count: first spawn was only 50-100, but most spawns are closer to 1000 (and have verified proof of over 1000 eggs)

Hatch Details
Hatch Date: 9/30/2006 to 10/1/2006 (hatched overnight)
Hatch Time of Day: roughly the midnight to 1 AM hour
# Days after Spawn: 8
Larve Description: small, kinda silvery, with a tiny orange belly, fully formed eyes mouth gut etc...


Larval Tank Details
Temperature: 82F
Size of Larval Tank: 10 gallon
Substrate Details: none
Other Tank Decor: none - sides and bottom painted black
Filtration Details: none
Lighting: 18" 15watt standard strip light
Lighting Cycle: probably was on about 18 hours a day
Water Changes: probably none

Larval Feeding Details
Food Types: rotifers
Feeding Schedule: constant (greenwater technique, probably using Nanno and Tet)

Metamorphosis/Settlement
Date of Settlement Start: 10-10-2006
Days after Hatch: 9 full days (larvae had sttled by morning of 10-10)
Date of Settlement End:
Description of Fry:

Grow-Out Tank Details
Temperature: 78-80
Size of Grow-Out Tank: 24 gallon broodstock tank, in a breeder net - 2 weeks later placed in a 6 gallon nanocube
Substrate Details: none
Other Tank Decor: none
Filtration Details: stock nanocube filtration
Lighting: standard nanocube twin power compact flourescent
Lighting Cycle: 12 hours, on timer
Water Changes: 25% weekly
Size at Transfer: 1/4" at most
Age at Transfer 10 days+

Grow-Out Feeding Details
Food Types: Crushed flakes & pellets, Otohime pellets, baby brine shrimp
Feeding Schedule: at least 2-3 times per day

Additional Information
Miscellaneous Information:

Originally documented my breeding efforts with this pair on Reef Central - http://www.reefcentral.co...d.php?threadid=934645 (where it was Thread of the Month), got banned, posted briefly on Marine Depot ( http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic62574-12-1.aspx ) then followed up on MOFIB for a long time at: http://www.marinebreeder....bb/viewtopic.php?t=211

Heck, as recently as today, 2-5-2010, they pair just put down another nest.  They have been consistent spawners since their first spawn years ago.

Here's some pictures from my past efforts:

First good spawn picture, shot 10-2-06

Another random spawning picture, shot 12-5-2006


17+ days post hatch, shot on 10-17-2006



15 days post hatch, under the QX5 at 10X


A later batch,shot at 17 days post hatch


First batched moved to their own nanocube at 25 days post hatch.


50 days post hatch


66 days post hatch


87 days post hatch


92 and 65 days post hatch


99 and 72 days post hatch


99 days post hatch


109 and 82 days


112 days, a different batch, hosting in Xenia with an Allardi


342 days post hatch - these last three images are of the same baby...shows again how stripes develop over LONG periods of time in perculas.


541 days post hatch, and tailstripe is only now forming


665 days post hatch (fish on the lower left, firsh on right is a WC perc)

So...tried for a larval collected on the night of the 12th...early perhaps, so guessing tonihgt, the 13th, will be the night

So once again, no hatch tonight.  I'm just jumping the gun, I know.  9 days is the norm.  But, just to ensure it, last night after waiting for 2-3 hours and no luck, I put a small LED light on the next to prevent it from hatching.  I've now done the same thing tonight after waiting almost 5 hours.  Sunday MUST be hatch night, or I think there's a problem!

Of course, the Onyx Percs have to be annoying as always.  Had about a 50% hatch tonight in the broodstock tank.  The larval snagger only snagged 20 or so.  I had to resort to scooping out the rest...took about 2-3 gallons of water to get them out.  Maybe got 100?  Placed them in a new 10 with a Stealth Heater (the new 2010 models) and an air feed.  20 Drops of RotiRich Plus for greenwater, and 1.5 gallons worth of seived Rotifers for food.  Lights are staying on.

Tomorrow night, I think I might be so bold as to collect what I can and place them in a different tank and perhaps treat them slightly different.  Why not...I can always recombine them later if I want...

Interesting...

Matt

Just to be clear, your last sentence: "Lights are staying on." are you referring to the larval tank so they can feed all night, or the broodstock tank so the rest don't hatch?  Just curious.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

YES



I should've done this too, becuase when I checked at 1:00 AM, the rest had hatched and were lost in the filtration!  9 days it is on the Pair now that we moved them to Duluth...

Matt

Had some deaths, hard to get a headcount, but a good number of larvae still alive today.  I'm using the RotiGrow Plus, which Eric @ Reed tells me they haven't really tried as a Greenwater Technique algae (due to the enhanced level of HUFAS causing a slick on the water surface).  I'm testing it out to see how it goes....maybe I'll raise an uber batch of Onyx Percs this time?

So the verdict is in..you cannot use RotiGrow Plus for greenwater technique, at least I can't.  Of course, I should predicate my statements by saying that RotiGrow Plus is not MEANT for greenwater technique...it's specifically meant for growing highly pre-enriched rotifers.  The companion product, RotiGreen, is SPECIFICALLY designed for use as a Greenwater algae, and has high levels of both EPA and DHA (so it should take care of the need for certain species that ordinarily have required T-ISO in the past to round out the HUFA profiles and ensure good growth).

Basically, all the larvae Onyx Perc larvae I collected started dying on the evening of day 3, and by the end of day 5 they're all dead.  I DID have some elevated ammonia levels as well, but when comparing notes with other breeders, including one that has tried using the RotiGrow Plus for greenwater, it seems that the result is that the RotiGrow Plus is responsible for the losses.  It's important again to stress that the product was not intended for use in Greenwater, that as far as I know, Reed has never tried / tested it for use as a Greenwater Technique product, and therefore, I was definitely on my own and experimenting here, and as we all know, sometimes experiments end in failure.

My next batch, I will use the RotiGreen for greenwater.  Should work just fine   If it fails in the same manner as this batch did, then I have to re-examine what I'm doing.

FWIW,

Matt

Thanks for the update Matt and keep us posted.

Chad Penney - MBI Council
Agis quod Adis

Opportunity for redemption is at hand.  The Onyx Percs put down another nice nest on the evening of March 1st

Ah, I totally neglected to say that the nest hatched on the 10th/11th.

And boom...all sold off at 35 days post hatch

Cool, I've never sold any that small/young.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

WOW......those sold quick
I'd like to have your connections hehe.

I put my local pricing up on the local forums.  But it can be difficult to sell larger groups of fish like the 150 45 day old Black O's...that was lucky...right buyer wasn in the market and I made an offer that couldn't be touched.



Hobbyists sometimes want to watch 'em grow up and they'll put them in a net breeder and feed crushed up flake.  Definitely tough for a hobbyist to pull off sometimes, but I sell them cheap.  I.e. the 35 day old Onyx were a bit "smaller" than some at that age, so I did $5 each (normally they're $10 when 30 days+...I think $15 at 45 days, $20 when second stripe starts showing etc...)

An interesting side note...C-Quest actually sells really small clowns, both percs and ocellaris, as "Nano" size.  They're maybe 1/2" to 3/4".  Stores sell 'em at $20 retail in Chicago.  They go like gangbusters at that small size.  Yes, not as solid of a fish, but people love 'em the way they love newly released Banggais.  And for someone with a Pico or a small Nano, arguably not a bad addition fish wise.

The nice thing about having avenues to sell things small is it allows you to free up grow out space now and again.  That said, I intend to have a lot more growout in the future fishroom.

Matt,

I have been using the Rotigrow Plus for a few months now as a rotifer feed and as the greenwater with the larva.  I have had approx 95%+ survival rate after day 1.  I do tend to clean the tank a little more and keep the aeration a little higher but have had success with it. 

I had a nice conversation with Randy Reed yesterday and I ordered more rotigrow plus for the rotifer food.  I am also going to try the rotigreen for the greenwater and their new N-Rich for rotifer enrichment.  I will see if there is any differences.  One thought I had is that to me it is beneficial to use the roigrow plus as the greenwater.  During the first few days after hatch I usually keep the rotifer density fairly high.  If the clutch of eggs is small I may only add rotifers once or twice clear up thry meta so using the the rotigrow plus keeps the rotifers at the highest nutritional level during that time.  I understand that possibly with some other types of fish that may consume rotifers that this may not work but it seems to be working with clowns.

BTW,  I finished counting all the clowns in the clownhouse on Wednesday and there is 2,786 in the growout system :-)

Dave

Dave, I'm surprised to hear you're using the Rotigrow PLUS for Greenwater.  At what levels (that seems to be very important)?  All I know is my experiences using it for Greenwater didn't go well, and that mirrored the results of other well known breeders.  But hey, if it's working for you, then yes, great, because MY reason for wanting to use it is the same as yours.   That said, the RotiGrow Plus and RotiGreen are part of a system, and I think the system was designed to work a certain way.  My understanding...and sadly I cannot remember who to attribute this thought to...is that the elevated lipid levels in the RotiGrow Plus can literally clog the gills of young fish, and that's where some of the problems stem from.

Matt,

Interesting theory on the gill clogging.  I had never thought of that.  I wonder if it is more of an issue with fish of other species than clownfish.  Obviously clownfish hatch more developed than other fish so it may be more of an issue.  Maybe I'll try 2 seperate clutches of clowns from the same brood and change only the greenwater.  I don't know how accurate it would be without testing multiple clutches on both for comparison but I'm always up for something different.

I can try to go back and see exactly how long ago I switched but I know that the last 2 orders from Reed were the Rotigrow PLUS.  I usually order around every 5-6 weeks so that would be 2-3 months.  As far as the exact levels that I use in the green water would be hard to say.  To be honest with you I am not the most technical guy and don't always keep the best records   I usually keep the water a little green with the Rotigrow Plus to keep the rots feed with the larva.  I dose the Rotigrow Plus twice a day and usually dose a little less each day as the larva progress til I am just trying to add enough to keep the rots nourished.

My tanks are blacked out on all sides with white on the bottom.  I use a black hood with 2 15 watt incadesent lamps for their light on 24/7 thru metamorphasis and seem to be having decent success.  You know just the plain black 10g incadescent hoods.

I can't say the Rotigrow PLUS is either doing better or worse in regards to misbars or gill defects.  To be honest I think it matters more on how diligent I am in regards to keeping the tank clean and water changes.  When I talked to Randy Reed initially about the Rotigrow PLUS he did say that he didn't know if it would work for greenwater.  I am going to try the Rotigreen and the N-Rich products but unless the clutch is large I am not convinced that it will be all that beneficial.

 
I wish I would have read this before I tried two batches of Onyx/Picassos.  I'm having the same exact problem.  I had over 100 larvae looking really good and eating well yesterday.  This morning all but seven were dead.
Time to try using RotiGreen.  I've used RotiGrow Plus for my Black and Whites with success.  Maybe since the Black and Whites are twice the size of my percs, they can handle it better.  Things that make me go "hmmmm".
Oh well, my Onyx/Picasso pair just laid another batch today (13 days between spawns, gotta love that) so I'll be trying with RotiGreen next time.

I have raised 3 batches of picasso's using RotiGrow Plus with only 4  dead out of over 120 hatched.  I use it for the rotifer food and greenwater.  I did receive a batch of rotigreen and the new N-Rich yesterday so I'm going to try that also.  I recently hatched a clutch of ocellaris which we counted the other day (423) and only 9 died in that batch with rotigrow plus.  Maube it has to do with the density of the greewater or aeration that doesn't seem to bother my fry.

 

That's true, the aeration could be the problem.  Rotigrow does create oil slicks so more aeration would help oxygenate the water.  Do you use some ammonia neutralizer with the Rotigrow?  How much water change per day?  Thanks

Not my theory.  Repeating secondhand info and regretably can't remember who told me about this.

quote=Barelycuda]I wonder if it is more of an issue with fish of other species than clownfish.  Obviously clownfish hatch more developed than other fish so it may be more of an issue.  Maybe I'll try 2 seperate clutches of clowns from the same brood and change only the greenwater.  I don't know how accurate it would be without testing multiple clutches on both for comparison but I'm always up for something different.

I wrote some notes about Rotigreen vs. Rotigrow when I talked to Randy the other day but I can't find them now.... ( I think the wife may have thrown them out on accident)  But from what I remember there are differences in the levels of DHA & EPA with Rotigrow being the better balanced food. 

One thought I had is that given the limited time it takes for a rotifer to empty its gut that unless it is consumed fairly quickly after being introduced into the larval tank the extra nutrition is gone.  I have had small clutches of clowns where I haven't added rotifers for a few days if the density remains higher than the consumption.  With rotigreen there may not be the same enrichment as rotigrow.  I am going to hatch a rather large clutch of B&W's on Tuesday and am going to use Rotigreen on this batch for the greenwater.  I have raised 5 clutches with the rotigrow and will follow the same cleaning and water change guidlines to see if there is a difference in the development and markings.  I am not as concerned about deaths as typically I only lose maybe 1-2% during metamorphasis but more of the development of the stripes.

Zooid-  No I have not used an ammonia neutralizer in the past with my larva.  I had always been concerned with the addition of chemicals damaging the larva.  I did use Cloram-X on the last batch of Ocellaris and did not have one death after day 2 and the markings seem to be ok so I would say that there is no harm.   With water changes I usually do a 15%-20% twice daily.  Since there is nobody around during the day as my wife & I both work I start a water change in the morning and evening.  I usually siphon out the tank in the evening.

OK, just got off the phone with Randy today and here's what the working theory is.  Bottom line, it IS a problem with the level of lipids in the RotiGrow Plus.  Basically, it creates that oil slick on the surface, and the theory is that can interfere with swim bladder inflation.  This is of course technically nothing new, as even Wilkerson talks about removing the oil slick from a larval tank with a paper towel.  But when you dose with RotiGrow Plus, you are virtually creating / replacing that oil slick.  Thus, when the fish mature to the point where they might inflate the swim bladder, they can't (or maybe they get oil) and thus, they start dropping like flies.

The interesting part is that this theory also supports why SOME PEOPLE have success and others do not.  Whether you maybe have surface skimming in your larval rearing (removes oil slick) or you are simply dosing at a very light rate, you might be avoiding the problems you can have with using RotiGrow Plus as a greenwater.  Of course, Rotifers don't have any issues with oil slicks on the surface, and thus, the extra Lipids work well.

All of that said, Randy explained again that RotiGreen is the product DESIGNED for use as a Greenwater product.  It has much lower lipid levels, and while it too creates a little bit of a slick, it's nothing like what happens with the RotiGrow Plus.

Now, to round it out, Randy also offered up that if a fish would not go to the surface to inflate it's swim bladder, you possibly COULD use the RotiGrow Plus, because again, that oil slick wouldn't matter.

Ultimately, I guess if you experiment, you take a risk.  RotiGreen for greenwater, that's what it was made for.  RotiGrow Plus for culturing / enriching rotifers (although there IS a separate enrichment product if you so choose).

FWIW,

Matt

Just noting that July 19th we had another spawn and the nests have returned to normal quality, big, lots of bright orange eggs.  I may rear this batch

Gresham has told me the same thing about RotiGrow+. I haven't tried it in larval tanks but I don't even seem to see any oil slicks with it. My current working theory is that my O. marina contaminants eat the oils.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

This may be silly, but couldn't you just use a cheap-o in tank skimmer here?  I'm thinking the style of the JBJ/JBL (can never remember the acronym) wood block air pump skimmer?  Simply put a basket with filter floss around it and just skim the slick away?  Granted it doesn't work if you are using a large (+30G or bigger) tank, but in theory it should work.

Interesting thought, but I think a lot of us would be worried about BABIES getting skimmed out!   Sorry I didn't see that and reply sooner!
 
I just wanted to update and say that I currently have 2 back to back batches going, one was the spawn from the 19th of July, which hatched on the 27th/28th.  I think the others hatched August 16th?  The pair is back to producing high quality nests, and while I still get 50% die off the day of the hatch, using the RotiGrow+ and RotiGreen system has without a doubt given me BETTER results than I got with live Photoplankton.  I am probably going to have HUNDREDS of Onyx Percs by Christmas time!  Just a side note, the parents just laid down another nest on the 20th of August...man, they just keep spawning and they're over a half decade old now.
 
I probably should get better about recording my spawns again...a decade from now it might be interesting to see just how many thousands of eggs they may have laid!

I dig the RG+ product a lot and I'm also a fan of the Nrich product. Good stuff. I still never see oil slicks, though. Culture containers that get straight RG+ do seem to foul pretty fast, so I'd be really careful how much you use if you use it for greenwater.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

I'm getting a slick even with using the RotiGreen only in my Black Round Tubs, but I'm not sure if that's "carryover" from using the same pipette to do my feedings of RotiGrow Plus into the Rotifer cultures.  I think I've had more problems with the rotifer cultures crashing due to overfeeding than anything else.  Even at full bore, 2 drops of the thawed RotiGrow + is a HEAVY feeding it seems.

I normally feed rotifers ten drops per gallon and it lasts about 12 hours or so.  I have to stir the RotiGrow+ in very well or I'll get a big oil slick.
 

Matt, at some point I should really send you some of the O. marina. I culture O. m. and rots right next to each other and I have to work _really_ hard to crash a rot culture from overfeeding. My problem is from eventual culture fouling if I let it run too long in one bucket, but I think that's a separate issue. I feed the rots too little to get a full-blown O. m. bloom in their cultures, but I'm sure that there's cross-contamination and I'm sure the O. m. make my rots easier to culture. Plus, they are a fun, easy dinoflagellate all on their own.
 
When I change out culture containers of either the rots or the O. m., I run everything through a 54 micron screen and occasionally getting rid of the other population seems to keep the populations in check so one doesn't overrun the other.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

I just started using RGreen and RGrow so I thought I'd toss in my experiences with it.
 
RGrow: I also noticed that I need to clean the culture buckets a little more often but I'm getting much higher rotifer density than when using Rotifer HD.
 
RGreen: I noticed a slight "oil slick" as mentioned if I add it by drops. If, on the other hand, I use a syringe and suck up a bit of tank water before adding it (mixing the RGreen w/ water) I don't get the slick. I used this method and product on my latest Darwin batch and have had little to no die-off.
 
I'm quite happy with both products. Cant wait to try it for my fridmani.   

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Evening of August 29th now, and both the male and female are going nutz on the nest.  That to me means it's hatch night (well, the first one anyway!).  9 days...like clockwork.  Going to pull the nest and try it in a BLUE round tub...medium blue...to see how it compares to using the Black one...

Good luck
Are your tubs the 17 gallon tubs?