Breeding Journal, Species: Amphiprion Ocellaris

Day #4 post hatch-
 
Good morning everyone.
 
I fed rotifers this morning, and noticed that after trying something last night- I am much happier with what I see:
 
Before going to bed last night, I did one more feeding to the larvae tank. To replace the water taken  from the rotifer jar, I used an equal amount that I took from the brood tank.
When I fed the larvae tank this morning- there was a significant difference in 'brownish' color- could clearly see the rots in this feeding- very happy
 
There are still swimmers - going to have to lay down under the tank later and try to get a count- that seems to be the better angle to view and count.
 
I agree on the green water- and will probably keep it through meta if it won't hurt the larvae transitioning into the fry, it seems to be working for now.
 
I am looking up the misbarring also- as I have not heard that until MBI. What factors create this? Other than temp that was already brought up? Feeding? Lighting? I will have to look into this as I am not familiar with it.
 
 
 
 

Michelle  
 

So misbarring is not something I should concern myself with ?
Seems it is something that could happen whether temp, feedings, or water quality may come into play, and may not affect others in the same tank?
 
From www.thatpetplace.com : Misbar Ocellaris clownfish are hardy, peaceful clownfish that adapt well to aquarium life. They have the popular and well-known clownfish coloration of bright orange white but as they were captive bred over several generations, these stripes have become incomplete and competely unique to each fish! There are even "naked" variants with no stripes at all!
 
From Kathy (found your site !) www.kathysclowns.com :
Q: Are misbarred fish defective?


A: No, in the sense that misbarred clownfish are perfectly healthy, grow as fast as perfectly barred fish, and reproduce well.  It is said that wild caught fish are always perfectly barred, but we are not sure if this is true.  Perhaps collectors simply disregard and fail to collect the wild misbarred ones.
    It is said that misbarring occurs in response to imperfect feeding or water quality.  If so, I have not found an answer for why some fish from the same nest are misbarred and others are not.
    Misbarred fish can be quite intriguing, and some customers will pay a premium for attractively or oddly misbarred fish. 
 
Also caught a post on www.reefcentral.com that suggests it depends on the actual parents.
My pair: the male is perfectly barred- the female: her middle bar does not connect.
(will try to post a pic)  So with that being said- the female is the stronger gene? Or the male?
(actually- the head bar on each does not fully connect, just barely touches to complete a full bar- so is this 'normal' or 'misbarring' for the head stripe?)
 

Michelle  
 

First off, I wouldn't trust anything from thatpetplace. All that they are is an animal transhiper. From what I hear, they don't even have any aquariums. At all.
 
You have to keep in mind that environmental misbarring (where bars _should_ develop on the fish, but don't) is different from odd genetic barring (where the bars develop as the genes tell them to, but that development looks different from what we'd expect).
 
Genetic. There are mutations out there in the clownfish population (as there are in every animal population) that cause a small percentage to develop that look different than most of the rest. Most of the time, such animals never reproduce at all (Zooid can tell you, clownfish can be vicious to fish that look just a little different and _will_ kill them). Other times, they reproduce but not with a partner that reinforces their odd mutation and it gets kind of buried in the gene pool, surfacing occasionally but not becoming dominant. And then, every once in a while, a small population of these odd fish gets isolated where the genes can reinforce each other, or something about the environment changes to make life better for those fish that have the mutation, or something like that, and you'll see a new population variant take hold. This is likely how the black and white clown came about (population isolation in Darwin harbor). This is likely also what's going on with the Lightning Maroon (population in Papua New Guinea, though the lightning variant hasn't taken over there ... yet).
 
Environment. This is, plainly and simply, some sort of environmental deficiency coming along at a critical time in a small fish's development that causes it to not completely finish showing what the genes told the fish's body to show. Once a fish gets past a certain stage of development, it won't go back and re-do things that didn't get done during that stage. There's no do-over. If the fish is past "center-stripe development stage" or whatever, then it has what it has. If the stripe didn't get fully formed ... well ... too bad. The body moves on and has other things to do.
 
I have a couple of friends that each had some sort of environmental issues in their childhoods and it caused them to miss out on developing the way that they were supposed to. It happens and there's not much to be done about it later.
 
I don't believe that anyone knows for sure what causes environmental misbarring. There are lots of theories: Ammonia exposure at a critical time and whatnot. I could buy that fish that are raised at a lower temperature might show less misbarring. Maybe not because temp plays any role in the barring process, but maybe because lower temps mean that the fish develop more slowly so that fish at lower temps have more time in, for example, the "center stripe development stage" to get the job done.
 
So, the upshot is: Odd bars cause by genetic mutations can be passed to future generations. Odd bars caused by some sort of environmental issue do not have any genetic coding for weird barring to pass along. They cannot pass on what they do not have.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

The short followup on misbars - they happen.  It is generally environmental, although there are extreme cases (like Naked Ocellaris and Picasso Perculas) which are genetic and not "misbars" as we think of them.  Truly, Misbars are environmentally influenced.  Wittenrich had a great article on "Designer Clownfish" in the most recent issue of CORAL and I suggest grabbing it.  In truth, misbars happen EVEN IN THE WILD.
 
I personally don't like misbars.  I want my clownfish to look as they should, i.e. a Perc with 3 solid stripes.  I don't cull misbars, but if I can find a way to reduce them, I'm going to pursue it.  In my largest batch of Black Ocellaris, I had 90% misbars.  Originally I would've put that closer to 100%, but the person who bought them all young had this interesting side note to pass along recently - all the SMALL ones now have full stripes (slow growth = better bar formation = supporting evidence to the temperature theory?)  The truth is there are probably MULTIPLE factors at play here, including Iodine availability, other dietary inputs, water quality etc.

Thank you both- good reading.
 
I will look at CORAL today.
 
After this afternoon's feeding- I noticed the bellies are looking good- plumpish.
(that's the word I'm using to describe my invisible fish, lol)
 
I have also noticed a few doing a snakelike swim- but I realize it is only day #4, and it again may just be my eyes- but they look like they are swimming, and not so much 'shooting' here and there for the food. There is minimal curving of the tail then popping forward... so hoping this is a good sign- but that means I need to move on.
 
Baby brine shrimp: obviously a skill I have not mastered. I decided to practice and hatch some shrimp last night, to see how tiny they would be, how much would come from a pinch, etc- well nothing happened. Not one hatch. Going to try again.
 
The count today came to 8- I am happy with that
(unless there are more hiding in the "Great Green Yonder" - then I will be thrilled! "
 
 
{Just for fun:Haha... I have always bought everything SMALL, and my husband would complain "It's like looking for a guppy in an ocean! Where's the fish?" lol- so I can't wait to show him how itty bitty these are! They (knock on wood) will be a week old when he gets home}

Michelle  
 

Ok-trying another wack at the brine shrimp.
 
I feel like an idiot each time I want to update- really I do, because each time I count- the # changes, but for the better (?) Go figure?
 
So I will stop updating the numbers until the water clears more (which I will let it thin out after next week)- and they are clearly visible. I even thought of siphoning them out just to count what it is I am working with- so I know what might be lost or maintained on which day-
but scratched that idea as I do not want to cause them stress.
 
I do not believe however that I am dealing with all 21 at this point though.
 
I am enjoying going through all the other journals here- so thank you to all who have participated in order to provide your experiences
 

Michelle  
 

If you are not decapsulating the brine shrimp eggs it can take up to 36 hours to hatch them depending on the temperature.
I decapsulate my eggs and sometimes it still takes over 24 hours for them to hatch because I don't have them in a warm bath and my light doesn't heat the water either

Ok I will try Tal's method also- to be 100% honest with everyone, the bleach thing scared me - and is still in my mind, but as long as there is no scent after washing then there should be no cause for me to be concerned I guess. I will just make sure it is rinsed very well.
(have never tried my own- always bought at LFS for display tank, so never actually decapsulated  any)
 
(sorry- but I am feeling abit OCD with my 1st hatch, so forgive me )
 
Did another rotifer feeding this evening- had my son get under the shelf to see if he could count (yeah yeah I know I said I would wait...but really, could you? )
 
Anyway...the result was basically : "You want me to count what? Are you even sure there's anything in there?"
 
lol- needless to say he is now banned from talking negative around the tank
 
(it's ok little fishies....I know you are in there....... somewhere......)

Michelle  
 

LOL.  he'll see them when they are like little puppy dogs waiting to be fed poking their noses out of the water.
 
I haven't read Tal's method but I'm sure it's a good method
I still smell bleach a little after I rinse for minutes so I normally mix the eggs in vinegar after rinsing then I rinse them again.
 
You're doing well on your first hatch.
It took me a couple batches to finally get some past the critical first few days.  The first batch that I was able to get some fish past meta had a whopping nine fish hehe.  My last several batches have yielded about 500+ past meta. 

lol bear in mind most of my batches were butchered by myself... it's a learning process and eventually you get into the groove.  My most successful batch to date reared a whopping 40 and all of those I can count as serious survivors given the rigors I put them through!  Like Gale said your doing real well!

Pelagically yours,
~J      

Thanks everyone
 
Today is Day #5 Post Hatch -
 
Just got done feeding rotifers.
They are so freakin' adorable...they hang out at the front glass in the morning when I turn on the light- knowing it's feeding time , lol
 
I notice silver bellies on a few.
Some are fatter than others.
 
All in all- there was a nice grouping at the front glass this morning- so very happy about that on day #5!
 
Tried to get a video- but the glare from the light was too much- and without the light the camera wouldn't have picked them up.
 
So will try again. I am thinning the water out abit from today until week #2. Not alot- just adding a turkey baster more of fresh brood water each day to mild up some of the green. But not too quickly.
 
Will post a pic this afternoon.

Michelle  
 

Ok- Video from Day #4:
 

Michelle  
 

And video from today- Day #5: 
  


  
 
I gave some food: New Life Spectrum pellets + flakes ground down to a very fine powder, then I rubbed my fingers gently in the water so it could release into the water column. (Thanks Tal)
 
The second time I did this, I added a pinch of the powdered food to a bit of phyto, swished it around, then gently poured it in the tank.
 
I know these are not the best shots- but they are the best I can do right now, I PROMISE when they grow I will get better footage
 
I'm just happy I still have them ~ YEAH!

Michelle  
 

Congratulations!  I think you've made it past the starvation phase.  Next step is metamorphosis.  Keep an eye on the water quality or you may start seeing flared gills.
Good job

Ok- got up this morning, fed rotifers.
Started to make a mix of phyto, the ground powder, and was going to add some brine shrimp as well. . . .one hatched. Really? After all night - there is just 1 swimming around in there?
So I put the tubing back in and put the light back on- and will try again in an hour or so.

Michelle  
 

LOL...sounds like you got a bad batch of brine eggs.
 

Could be bad brine cysts. If you bought the cysts from a local store, you have no clue how long they've been on the shelves (might have been years). 
Could be that you didn't get enough of the bleach off, though bleach tends to blow off if you are aerating the cysts properly in your hatcher. I tend to add .5 mL of bleach to my hatcher to kill bacteria when I first start it if I'm not using decapped cysts. Could just be cold in your hatcher.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Ok well to begin with...... I will check all of the above. I do not have a heater as it is in a upside down bottle, But I will add a different light source to get it warmer. I will also get different cysts - they may be bad like you say.
 
Ok..so I walk into the bedroom to feed the brood pair and I say :
"Ok mommys little baby makers...time to ea- Son Of A B****!"
Ugh, stop, turn and run for the camera - I cannot believe they are laying. Ok so it is obviously between 4:30pm and 5:15pm for their cycle, considering last time on the 13th.
 
So- I am almost nervous. lol. Haven't even gotten through my first batch yet, and I have more coming.... My fish need to 'get a headache' so I can catch up and learn what to do - lol!

Michelle  
 

LOL.....you have a week to get ready for them
Mine give me about 4-5 days from hatch to laying again so yours seem to be on schedule

Hmm... a week. Yeah, I can see that happening. I am already planning on telling hubby when he comes home that I need about 4 more tanks to keep the cycle going, lol.
 
Focusing on getting better egg cysts, otohime a, and the rest of what I should have had before they started....

Michelle  
 

Ok...very sad
 
The cysts are ok I guess, as when I went back to check on them,- took the tube out, and let the water settle- the shrimp were moving. So I know they are good.
 
I fed them to the tank.
 
Have been checking..........and checking............and checking..............
there is no sign now of any living, moving thing in the tank. I am so sad. I really hope it is they are just hiding in the green water. I want to see this through. I was just laying on the floor, looking up at the bottom of the tank to see if I can spot anything moving. Nothing. At all. I do notice a couple of dead larvae... from what look like they are dead. But maybe just in a resting state? The others did that before, and when the light was on them they popped up and darted. So I don't know.
 
Nothing has changed except that I have added the shrimp. And that would not have done anything. I am extremely careful when siphoning- into a clear mason jar, then let it settle to see if anything is in it just in case before pouring out.
 
Nothing is moving.
 
I am going to bed now, so very sad. Hoping that when I wake up in the morning something will come out of the green water to eat breakfast.
 
Good night.

Michelle  
 

Oh- to point out in case it pops in anyone's head...... there is not a possibility of any bleach residue remaining. I was very anal about making sure I rinsed with water, then vinegar, then water again- actually let the water run over the eggs as I shook the filter back and forth to make sure they all rinsed. Then when I thought I had them all good to go- lol I did it again to make sure I don't put any bleach into the tank by mistake not knowing..... So- not sure what to think

Michelle  
 

I'm thinking that the next go round, try to avoid BBS completely and get some Otohime.
When feeding the BBS to the tank did you rinse the BBS before adding them to the tank?
I only ask because BBS are notorious for causing bacterial buildup in the tank which will quickly rob the water of oxygen.
 
I hope you still have some alive.....I know how you feel.  I've been there.
Good luck.

 
Sorry to hear 'Chelle. Keep in mind that you have learned a lot and will have a better idea of what to do next time.

I agree, I skip the BBS for clowns. I do use them for baby Banggai though. I rinse the BBS in a BS net with fresh water before putting them in the larval tank as you suggest. 

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Rotifers to Otohime A for me.  In a pinch you could probably introduce FINELY powdered flake food (i.e. Formula 1) instead of Otohime, but prepare for doing more water changes to clean it up.  You can start introducing Otohime by like 4 days with Clowns...

yep I skip bbs most of my early failures were due to that
 
And to be honest, and brutally honest here... most people dont even get that far with their first!!  As sad as you may be you should be completely and utterly ecstatic that your ahead of the game!
 
Good thing theres a next time too!!  Your doin great

Pelagically yours,
~J      

Good morning everyone, and thank you  I do realize I came to day #6 post hatch, which I am thrilled with. But I didn't think the bbs would be harmful, from what I've read it is something used. So next time I will not use it. No, I did not think to rinse the bbs off when I sucked it out, I turkey basted it out of the water bottle and gently poured it into the tank- so is that why? Because I added the water that the bbs were in?
 
Nothing moving this morning. I am going to thin the water out today- and do a thorough check. I am still hoping to see something though.
 
Ok..... once again- thanks to everyone for seeing me through my first attempt at this. And I look forward to more batches and journals in the future, with hopes that the next one is always a better one
 
I will be back to update.
 
Have a Happy Friday

Michelle  
 

It gets better and better.
 
I can't really tell you if adding the BBS water and all is what killed your babies but it's a logical thought.  That water is so full of fats that bacteria blooms very quickly.  I always strain my BBS and run water over them to try and clear away some of the fats and/or bacteria before adding to my tank.
 
BBS is used extensively for raising clowns but with the new powdered foods it's much safer to just start feeding Otohime instead of BBS.  I still hatch BBS but I normally only give it to them every other day or every three days and only one feeding per day.
 
I'm sorry for your losses but as I said you will get better and better as time goes on.  I was raising hybrid onyx percula x ocellaris fish and I was getting great survival through metamorphosis.  Then I took a break and, man, I couldn't get a batch to even start meta.  I had to relearn everything hehe.
 
Here's my suggestions for the next batch.
     1.  Get some RotiGrow+ to feed your rotifers.
     2.  Get some Otohime.  I use Otohime B1 and C1 and use a mortar and pestle to make it smaller.  Other people use Otohime A to start.
     3.  Don't get discouraged

Hello all.
I am still here. Have a question for whoever knows:
When the clowns lay the eggs......and the eggs are growing.....do they feed?
Is it like a shark egg where the water filters through?
Or more like they eat their egg sac?
 
If it is the 1st- then what suggestions to add to the water to make them more viable?
If it is a yolk sac - then just feed the mom and dad extremely healthy, generous portions/vitamins?
 
Thanks!

Michelle  
 

The answer would be B. Providing a healthy diet for your pairs will ensure that they produce healthy and viable eggs.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Yep, B.
I like to feed my broodstock a variety of items too.

Ok- I also agree with B and have been doing that - a variety mix- as stated on Tal's site for the brood pair themselves.
 
But the actual eggs? (my husband and I got into this earlier so I am looking for backup info, lol) What do the actual eggs need or do? While I am waiting for the eggs themselves to hatch- while they are still on the wall in the brood tank, do you know if the eggs are benefiting at all from the water itself? If I were to add an additional supplement or something to the water- will that help the eggs? Do they feed while in the egg stage? Or only after they hatch, and then feed on their egg sac?
 
 

Michelle  
 

As far as I know, all that the eggs need is to be oxygenated. That is what the male is doing during the incubation period along with creating water movement to inhibit fungus.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

I wouldn't add anything to the water for the eggs.  Those eggs are pretty tough.  The only problems I've had with eggs are things that I'VE done wrong.  I took the eggs out a day early and didn't oxygenate them well enough and bacteria took hold quickly.

lol or you could leave them in the care of the parents and use a snagger to suck out the fry post hatch like I do.

Pelagically yours,
~J      

I'll have to try your snagger one of these days Joe......
I just take mine out the night of hatch because it's so much easier on the larvae.  They don't have to take that rollercoaster ride through a 1/4" tube lol.

Ok everyone- to update this particular journal- I have dwindled down to 6...dwindle down to 1. I had been emailing Bob Fenner from wwm and discussing this w/him awhile back. Of the 6 I got to survive, all of a sudden 5 died..... out of nowhere, I had 6 happy swimming little guys, then poof! Gone.
 
I am down to (1) baby from my first successful hatch/breeding attempt.
He is the cutest thing I have seen, and he looks to be healthy/strong. Today he is 92 days old!
 
I hope to mate him with one of the picasso's babies, if things go well...
 
Here is an older video of the ones that were part of this hatching:

I am very - very pleased I was able to have even one survive
I am looking forward to trying this again with a not-so-difficult hybrid pair, lol... to see the numbers that are produced. I am so eager, and still so excited to be part of this wonderful forum, and aquaculture as a whole. Thank you for sharing your help/tips with me I will continue to grow from them
 
ps: another cluster of eggs are due to hatch this evening or next from my percularis pair... changing some things around, moving the larval tank out to the garage (warmer out there /Florida lol) and going to try to introduce the otohime earlier, until I get some of the copepods from reed I read on a previous post from Tal/others. Also- on the advice of Bob F., I am trying to create a more sea-like conditions- I have raised the sg in the brood tank to 1.028 (gradually of course) to see if that makes a difference with the young.
 

Michelle  
 

All it takes is one! Keep it up, you'll have more than you know what to do with soon.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Thanks Tal- appreciate the feedback as usual
 
Have a Happy Easter!
 

Michelle  
 

How long are you going to keep it separate? You're doing a graet job!

RLTW

180 Gallon Mixed Reef

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8