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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Tuesday, August 24, 2010 5:57 AM
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Day #4 post hatch- Good morning everyone. I fed rotifers this morning, and noticed that after trying something last night- I am much happier with what I see: Before going to bed last night, I did one more feeding to the larvae tank. To replace the water taken from the rotifer jar, I used an equal amount that I took from the brood tank. When I fed the larvae tank this morning- there was a significant difference in 'brownish' color- could clearly see the rots in this feeding- very happy  There are still swimmers - going to have to lay down under the tank later and try to get a count- that seems to be the better angle to view and count. I agree on the green water- and will probably keep it through meta if it won't hurt the larvae transitioning into the fry, it seems to be working for now. I am looking up the misbarring also- as I have not heard that until MBI. What factors create this? Other than temp that was already brought up? Feeding? Lighting? I will have to look into this as I am not familiar with it.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Tuesday, August 24, 2010 6:23 AM
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So misbarring is not something I should concern myself with ? Seems it is something that could happen whether temp, feedings, or water quality may come into play, and may not affect others in the same tank? From www.thatpetplace.com : Misbar Ocellaris clownfish are hardy, peaceful clownfish that adapt well to aquarium life. They have the popular and well-known clownfish coloration of bright orange white but as they were captive bred over several generations, these stripes have become incomplete and competely unique to each fish! There are even "naked" variants with no stripes at all! From Kathy (found your site !) www.kathysclowns.com : Q: Are misbarred fish defective?
A: No, in the sense that misbarred clownfish are perfectly healthy, grow as fast as perfectly barred fish, and reproduce well. It is said that wild caught fish are always perfectly barred, but we are not sure if this is true. Perhaps collectors simply disregard and fail to collect the wild misbarred ones. It is said that misbarring occurs in response to imperfect feeding or water quality. If so, I have not found an answer for why some fish from the same nest are misbarred and others are not. Misbarred fish can be quite intriguing, and some customers will pay a premium for attractively or oddly misbarred fish. Also caught a post on www.reefcentral.com that suggests it depends on the actual parents. My pair: the male is perfectly barred- the female: her middle bar does not connect. (will try to post a pic) So with that being said- the female is the stronger gene? Or the male? (actually- the head bar on each does not fully connect, just barely touches to complete a full bar- so is this 'normal' or 'misbarring' for the head stripe?)
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Tuesday, August 24, 2010 8:41 AM
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First off, I wouldn't trust anything from thatpetplace. All that they are is an animal transhiper. From what I hear, they don't even have any aquariums. At all.
You have to keep in mind that environmental misbarring (where bars _should_ develop on the fish, but don't) is different from odd genetic barring (where the bars develop as the genes tell them to, but that development looks different from what we'd expect).
Genetic. There are mutations out there in the clownfish population (as there are in every animal population) that cause a small percentage to develop that look different than most of the rest. Most of the time, such animals never reproduce at all (Zooid can tell you, clownfish can be vicious to fish that look just a little different and _will_ kill them). Other times, they reproduce but not with a partner that reinforces their odd mutation and it gets kind of buried in the gene pool, surfacing occasionally but not becoming dominant. And then, every once in a while, a small population of these odd fish gets isolated where the genes can reinforce each other, or something about the environment changes to make life better for those fish that have the mutation, or something like that, and you'll see a new population variant take hold. This is likely how the black and white clown came about (population isolation in Darwin harbor). This is likely also what's going on with the Lightning Maroon (population in Papua New Guinea, though the lightning variant hasn't taken over there ... yet).
Environment. This is, plainly and simply, some sort of environmental deficiency coming along at a critical time in a small fish's development that causes it to not completely finish showing what the genes told the fish's body to show. Once a fish gets past a certain stage of development, it won't go back and re-do things that didn't get done during that stage. There's no do-over. If the fish is past "center-stripe development stage" or whatever, then it has what it has. If the stripe didn't get fully formed ... well ... too bad. The body moves on and has other things to do.
I have a couple of friends that each had some sort of environmental issues in their childhoods and it caused them to miss out on developing the way that they were supposed to. It happens and there's not much to be done about it later.
I don't believe that anyone knows for sure what causes environmental misbarring. There are lots of theories: Ammonia exposure at a critical time and whatnot. I could buy that fish that are raised at a lower temperature might show less misbarring. Maybe not because temp plays any role in the barring process, but maybe because lower temps mean that the fish develop more slowly so that fish at lower temps have more time in, for example, the "center stripe development stage" to get the job done.
So, the upshot is: Odd bars cause by genetic mutations can be passed to future generations. Odd bars caused by some sort of environmental issue do not have any genetic coding for weird barring to pass along. They cannot pass on what they do not have.
--Andy, the bucket man. "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:36 AM
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The short followup on misbars - they happen. It is generally environmental, although there are extreme cases (like Naked Ocellaris and Picasso Perculas) which are genetic and not "misbars" as we think of them. Truly, Misbars are environmentally influenced. Wittenrich had a great article on "Designer Clownfish" in the most recent issue of CORAL and I suggest grabbing it. In truth, misbars happen EVEN IN THE WILD.
I personally don't like misbars. I want my clownfish to look as they should, i.e. a Perc with 3 solid stripes. I don't cull misbars, but if I can find a way to reduce them, I'm going to pursue it. In my largest batch of Black Ocellaris, I had 90% misbars. Originally I would've put that closer to 100%, but the person who bought them all young had this interesting side note to pass along recently - all the SMALL ones now have full stripes (slow growth = better bar formation = supporting evidence to the temperature theory?) The truth is there are probably MULTIPLE factors at play here, including Iodine availability, other dietary inputs, water quality etc.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Tuesday, August 24, 2010 11:48 AM
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Thank you both- good reading. I will look at CORAL today. After this afternoon's feeding- I noticed the bellies are looking good- plumpish. (that's the word I'm using to describe my invisible fish, lol) I have also noticed a few doing a snakelike swim- but I realize it is only day #4, and it again may just be my eyes- but they look like they are swimming, and not so much 'shooting' here and there for the food. There is minimal curving of the tail then popping forward... so hoping this is a good sign- but that means I need to move on. Baby brine shrimp: obviously a skill I have not mastered. I decided to practice and hatch some shrimp last night, to see how tiny they would be, how much would come from a pinch, etc- well nothing happened. Not one hatch. Going to try again. The count today came to 8- I am happy with that (unless there are more hiding in the "Great Green Yonder" - then I will be thrilled! " {Just for fun:Haha... I have always bought everything SMALL, and my husband would complain "It's like looking for a guppy in an ocean! Where's the fish?" lol- so I can't wait to show him how itty bitty these are! They (knock on wood) will be a week old when he gets home}
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Tuesday, August 24, 2010 6:22 PM
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Ok-trying another wack at the brine shrimp. I feel like an idiot each time I want to update- really I do, because each time I count- the # changes, but for the better (?) Go figure? So I will stop updating the numbers until the water clears more (which I will let it thin out after next week)- and they are clearly visible. I even thought of siphoning them out just to count what it is I am working with- so I know what might be lost or maintained on which day- but scratched that idea as I do not want to cause them stress. I do not believe however that I am dealing with all 21 at this point though. I am enjoying going through all the other journals here- so thank you to all who have participated in order to provide your experiences
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Tuesday, August 24, 2010 6:51 PM
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If you are not decapsulating the brine shrimp eggs it can take up to 36 hours to hatch them depending on the temperature. I decapsulate my eggs and sometimes it still takes over 24 hours for them to hatch because I don't have them in a warm bath and my light doesn't heat the water either
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Tuesday, August 24, 2010 8:15 PM
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Ok I will try Tal's method also- to be 100% honest with everyone, the bleach thing scared me - and is still in my mind, but as long as there is no scent after washing then there should be no cause for me to be concerned I guess. I will just make sure it is rinsed very well. (have never tried my own- always bought at LFS for display tank, so never actually decapsulated any) (sorry- but I am feeling abit OCD with my 1st hatch, so forgive me ) Did another rotifer feeding this evening- had my son get under the shelf to see if he could count (yeah yeah I know I said I would wait...but really, could you? ) Anyway...the result was basically : "You want me to count what? Are you even sure there's anything in there?" lol- needless to say he is now banned from talking negative around the tank (it's ok little fishies....I know you are in there....... somewhere......)
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Tuesday, August 24, 2010 8:24 PM
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LOL. he'll see them when they are like little puppy dogs waiting to be fed poking their noses out of the water. I haven't read Tal's method but I'm sure it's a good method I still smell bleach a little after I rinse for minutes so I normally mix the eggs in vinegar after rinsing then I rinse them again. You're doing well on your first hatch. It took me a couple batches to finally get some past the critical first few days. The first batch that I was able to get some fish past meta had a whopping nine fish hehe. My last several batches have yielded about 500+ past meta.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:00 PM
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lol bear in mind most of my batches were butchered by myself... it's a learning process and eventually you get into the groove. My most successful batch to date reared a whopping 40 and all of those I can count as serious survivors given the rigors I put them through! Like Gale said your doing real well!
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Wednesday, August 25, 2010 6:12 AM
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Thanks everyone Today is Day #5 Post Hatch - Just got done feeding rotifers. They are so freakin' adorable...they hang out at the front glass in the morning when I turn on the light- knowing it's feeding time , lol I notice silver bellies on a few. Some are fatter than others. All in all- there was a nice grouping at the front glass this morning- so very happy about that on day #5! Tried to get a video- but the glare from the light was too much- and without the light the camera wouldn't have picked them up. So will try again. I am thinning the water out abit from today until week #2. Not alot- just adding a turkey baster more of fresh brood water each day to mild up some of the green. But not too quickly. Will post a pic this afternoon.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Wednesday, August 25, 2010 4:54 PM
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Wednesday, August 25, 2010 5:09 PM
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And video from today- Day #5:  I gave some food: New Life Spectrum pellets + flakes ground down to a very fine powder, then I rubbed my fingers gently in the water so it could release into the water column. (Thanks Tal) The second time I did this, I added a pinch of the powdered food to a bit of phyto, swished it around, then gently poured it in the tank. I know these are not the best shots- but they are the best I can do right now, I PROMISE when they grow I will get better footage  I'm just happy I still have them ~ YEAH! 
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Wednesday, August 25, 2010 7:17 PM
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Congratulations! I think you've made it past the starvation phase. Next step is metamorphosis. Keep an eye on the water quality or you may start seeing flared gills. Good job
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Thursday, August 26, 2010 4:41 AM
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Ok- got up this morning, fed rotifers.
Started to make a mix of phyto, the ground powder, and was going to add some brine shrimp as well. . . .one hatched. Really? After all night - there is just 1 swimming around in there?
So I put the tubing back in and put the light back on- and will try again in an hour or so.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Thursday, August 26, 2010 4:48 AM
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LOL...sounds like you got a bad batch of brine eggs.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Thursday, August 26, 2010 8:07 AM
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Could be bad brine cysts. If you bought the cysts from a local store, you have no clue how long they've been on the shelves (might have been years).
Could be that you didn't get enough of the bleach off, though bleach tends to blow off if you are aerating the cysts properly in your hatcher. I tend to add .5 mL of bleach to my hatcher to kill bacteria when I first start it if I'm not using decapped cysts. Could just be cold in your hatcher.
--Andy, the bucket man. "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Thursday, August 26, 2010 3:27 PM
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Ok well to begin with...... I will check all of the above. I do not have a heater as it is in a upside down bottle, But I will add a different light source to get it warmer. I will also get different cysts - they may be bad like you say.
Ok..so I walk into the bedroom to feed the brood pair and I say :
"Ok mommys little baby makers...time to ea- Son Of A B****!"
Ugh, stop, turn and run for the camera - I cannot believe they are laying. Ok so it is obviously between 4:30pm and 5:15pm for their cycle, considering last time on the 13th.
So- I am almost nervous. lol. Haven't even gotten through my first batch yet, and I have more coming.... My fish need to 'get a headache' so I can catch up and learn what to do - lol!
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Thursday, August 26, 2010 3:51 PM
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LOL.....you have a week to get ready for them Mine give me about 4-5 days from hatch to laying again so yours seem to be on schedule
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: <A. Ocellaris>
Thursday, August 26, 2010 5:29 PM
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Hmm... a week. Yeah, I can see that happening. I am already planning on telling hubby when he comes home that I need about 4 more tanks to keep the cycle going, lol.
Focusing on getting better egg cysts, otohime a, and the rest of what I should have had before they started....
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