Picasso grades

Tal, at one point in the chat you had run down a list of what to look for when grading Picassos. Can you give me the list again, please?

 

Some guy is asking me what grades I have and my answer at the moment is A. percula.

 

Thanks!

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

What I've been told is the following:

 

Grade A- 2 bars, on both sides, touch (no black in between)

Grade B- 2 bars, on one side, touch (no black in between)

Snowcasso- ~70% white

Platinum- >90% white

I also get ones that bar up just like A. ocellaris (just as fast too), funky mis-bars and some that look like they will be regular looking A. percula.

 

HTH

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

So, let's take the T perc, for example (since it's near and dear to your heart). What happened there was the fish started two extra bars and those two grew together into the middle bar. But the T doesn't touch the bar on either side. What does that count as?

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

I should have added a "Funky Mis-bar" category. I get those too. Not sure where to put them on the scale. Also, 4-barred ones. I'm tending toward a higher price for ones with very cool patterns since they are essentially one-of-a-kind. 

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

That's where most of mine sit, honestly. I don't think I have many, if any, in the Picasso grades. But there are lots of funky misbars, starting with about a third of them with extra stripes along the jawline (mutton chops, as it were). Hmm. What to charge, what to charge....

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

i know when i bought my picassos i paid more for the helmet and the mutton chops
 

FWIW, "Snowcasso" is Doni's Trademark for her "A+" Grade.  I've already explained my displeasure with that particular term (because even with the best informational campaign,  it still does mislead some people into thinking it might be the cross of a Snowflake Ocellaris X Picasso Percula).  Nevertheless, the name is here, but since it's Doni's TM, it's not really a "grade"...it's a "Trademark".  As such, in theory, no one else can use the name without Doni's permission, and no one can sell a "Snowcasso" other than Doni.  From a marketing and sales standpoint, it's a branding thing and it certainly works.  From a universal discusssion about the various "Grades", that is, the range of patterning among perculas from Onyx to Picasso to Platinum and the genetics behind it, I'd argue that the name "Snowcasso" doesn't fit in.
 
Where I might diverge from Tal's grading is in looking more abstractly at the larger picture.  It woudl seem to me that most of the B-Grade Picassos out there may not even have ANY bars touching...but more that they have irregular shapes to the edges of the bars.  One may touch here or there.  The A Grades are simply the extension of that distortion as the white takes over more of the body, and the Platinums are basically the end point for white expression at this point.  Genetically, it might look something like AAB, ABB, and BBB.  Of course, I like how Tal puts these grades into neatly defined buckets, but the reality seems that there's a continnuum of "picasso" expression, but that Platinum is a pretty clearly different thing than all the aforementioned items.  Platinums seem to be ultimate obliteration of orange coloration in the fish, but the way they come about is that there is always a clear distinction between what's a "Picasso" and what is a "Platinum" from very early on.  That tells me the genetics are different, and while related, the "Platinum" isn't a grade of "Picasso"...it's a different fish.
 
Of course, all of that is just based on my observations of the information people are putting out there.  I could be really really wrong or 100% right.
 
 

my only problem about being totally different fish is that my Doni Snocassos hatch out mainly grade a, snocassos, and platiniums.  if they were totally different fish then that wouldnt happen

I was just going by what Doni and a few others said about the grades. I'd be happy to stop using grades all together.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

 

Well, honestly some people's best of the "A" Grade = Doni's "Snowcasso".  Thus, I have a hard time talking about the "Snowcassos" as anything other than Doni's TM on her best Picasso offspring.  I welcome Doni or anyone else to show me (with pictures please) where and why there's a definition.  I say that primarily because my hunch on the genetics tells me that there is a fundamental difference between anything Platinum and a Picasso (which is why I say they are "different fish").  Platinums seem to be more apt to show up in a "doubling down" of Picassos, but if I remember correctly, Soren Hansen's "Maine Blizzards" are the progeny of an Onyx X Picasso, and are thus, just another name for a "Platinum" Percula Phenotype.  All this mucking about with various trademarks and breeder names is, in my opinion, serving only to create confusion and differentiation where there isn't any.  It'd be like 10 people having 10 different names for an Albino Ocellaris...all those names attempt to suggest that it's something more or different than an "albino".

 

So to circle back, I DO see a fundamental difference in what most people call A and B grades in the Picassos, but maybe it's just a Picasso Gene and environment does the rest (it's certainly possible).  Irregardless, there is definitely ANOTHER genetic component to getting to be a Platinum...the numbers and occurances based on Tal's and David Durr's results are strongly suggestive of that.  In truth, "Grades" have always been about "marketing"...whether there is any genetic difference between an "A" Grade and a "B" Grade and a "Snowcasso" grade is speculative at this point.

 

But I"m off on a tangent of course, because Andy's initial question was about the Grades, and if you think about his question and the issues around it, you'll realize that all the grading is "marketing" at this point.  It's not like "B" Grade Picassos will only produce more "B" Grades....or do they?  You tell me Picasso breeders...what have YOU seen from a parental influence standpoint?

 

In my case, using the method above, my pair would be considered grade B. They produce the whole spectrum in each batch. 

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

I have always gone by the grading pretty much identical to Tal's.
 
Technically by Tal's and most other grading standards my picasso's are a grade A male and a grade B female.  With that being said mine produce approximately 30% percula markings (whether regular or misbarred), 40% picasso markings of varying degrees (mostly grade B with a very small percentage of what I would call grade A) and 30% platinum markings.  These numbers are approximate but close.
 
I do personally believe that there may not be any genetic difference between the grade A's & B's and more about random markings.  If you look closely at a batch of juvenile picasso's it would be difficult to find any 2 identical in a clutch and therefore would stand to reason that the randomness is carried down to the offspring from the parents.  Now the fact that the platinums come from picasso's is still kind of new to me.  It wasn't until my picasso's started spawing last fall that I found out that platinums came from picasso's.  Now I do not claim to know anything about the genetics and Matt is much more knowledgeable about that than I am.
 
Dave

To me this sounds like a phenotype dependent on quantitative trait loci. Basically instead of being controlled by a single gene the trait is controlled by the interaction of many genes. And instead of resulting in discreet phenotypes the distribution of phenotypes in the offspring will follow a bell curve (if we were to characterize the offspring by % of white coverage rather then just grade). If Matt is right and the platinum markings are the result of a separate epistatic gene influencing the QTLs the bell curve will have a distinct tail(s).

 

That's just what sprung into my mind when I read Dave's comment. I haven't done any genetics in quite a while though so I could be way off base. Come to think of it this could be a case of incomplete dominance (that would be like 25%, 50%, 25% where picassos are an incompletely dominant platinum), but we'd have to seen the distribution within the 50% group to know. Anyway, sorry for the further OT.

Tal,

I use pretty much the same scale except the B grades include any unusal patterns whether or not the stripes connect. Some of my favorites are B grades!



 

I've tried to stop using a scale above and simply call them Picassos but I received many, many, many questions asking what grade a fish was that I was selling so I added the grades back to the descriptions. I don't like the scale because it implies that the grade A's are nicer than the B's and that is not the case (usually the opposite).

 

Matt,  The TM is still in process and with so many folks using that word nowadays it may be impossible.   Unfortunately, I padded a lawyer's pockets a bit in the process. 

A google search of the word 2 years ago would only yield my site or my forum posts.... now, you'll get pages and pages of references. It is impossible to TM a commonly used word..... 

Doni Marie~

I've always used the same grading system as Tal for
Grade A, Grade B, and Platinums.
I've also seen Grade C used.  Fish has three bars but one of the bars (normally the middle bar) has a unique shape but not a misbar.
A lot of mine are Grade C.  As a matter of fact, the male parent is also a Grade C.

How about the "sideburns" that so many seem to get? Does that count as a whole extra bar (since that is essentially what it is)?

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886