Breeding Journal, Species: Amphiprion percula (Picasso variant)

I take parent tank water right before I pull the eggs. I thought ammonia levels wouldn't spike for 2-3 days. To be honest I never tested ammonia levels!So this could be an issue. Would die off happen so rapidly if ammonia levels were too high? Is it possible to have the levels in fatal amounts within 14 hours?
No chance of Lysol or anything else being introduced into the tank. It's in my basement and we don't clean with aerosols down there or even much in the upstairs for that matter. I could see if something like this happened once in a great while but this is a consistent problem I'm having.
How can I detect a bacterial bloom? Again, water is taken out of my reef tank. I do run MB7/vodka in my reef. Would a bacteria bloom happen so fast?
 
Thank you for the response!
 

Sorry to hear this. I thought they were going to make it this time. I have no idea if I am supposed to and this is only my second time trying to raise fry but I add ammonia reducer each day. I can't say that I recommend this or not but I really need to get a new test kit because it always shows some ammonia on anything I test.
 
Maybe you are on to something with using your water from your reef system. I would try using some different water next time. Does the salinity matter in a larval tank? I know mine is 1.020 because that is what Tal suggested but I don't know if it matters. You can get water next time from me if you want or just try some freshly made water, it can't hurt.

For some reason I can only reply if I use a smiley face sooo disregard my animated friends here, lol....
 
Question: maybe I am wrong.... but in taking the parent water from the main tank, that has the filtration , and placing the water into a smaller area with -0- filtration... that is where I would think the levels would build up quickly, although you would not notice it in the main DT.
Do you use any badges on tha larvae tanks? (ammonia badge)?
 
I also add the Prime to the larval tank. But I don't use all parent water, I have a tank up and running, with similar sg,temp,and I add about 2 cups of the parent water.... maybe you can set up a fresh tank now... have the water in there bubbling/circulating, with the foam filter.... then when you have the larvae or eggs ready on hatch night - remove the foam filter, turn the bubbler down to a slower count, tint your water green and enjoy your success!

Michelle  
 

Using water from the broodstock tank is standard procedure and not a bad thing to do. I doubt that a build up of ammonia was the problem in this case. I'm guessing a lack of oxygen due to the lower flow.
Ammonia badges are pretty worthless from what I've been told in the past.
 

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

 
Doesn't he have these in a reef tank though? Do you think the vodka and other chemicals coming from whatever he doses might affect the larvae? At this point there really isn't much he can change unless the air was turned way down. I would try different water you really do not have anything to lose at this point.

I still think that using water from where the eggs were is the best idea. Using an airstone with coarser bubbles is what I would try next. I don't think the white ones with the fine bubbles is giving you enough oxygen exchange.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

First comment on any explanation of "this is what I do" should be the required "and it is only one of hundreds of ways this can be done".
 
We allow the fry to stay in the display tank with the parents taking care of them until they release.
 
On the night I think they will hatch (yep, I miss sometimes) I turn off all the lights in the room where the tank sits (ALL lights ... I make the room pitch black) and turn off all the pumps on the display. I add the airline tube which will be used in the fry tank to the display tank to keep a bit of water flow / O2 exchange.
 
Starting about 30 minutes after the room is dark, I use a small LED light against the side of the tank to check for release. If they have not released, I wait 15 minutes and check again.
 
When they start to release, I hold the light against the side of the tank to draw the fry to one corner of the display tank.  I scoop them out with a white teacup and move them to the fry tank --- this is a 2 G tank prepped earlier (add a few drops of bleach to the tank, fill it with water, let it sit, add Prime or Amquel etc, rinse with tap water, rinse with RO water).  We have used a larval snagger a few times, but do find just scooping them out with the teacup works well for us.
 
After all the fry have been moved, we drain the fry tank to only about 1/2 full. Add rotifers and Nanochloropsis. Move the airline to the fry tank. We don't use airstones, have been told the fry ingest the little bubbles and die.
 
We have been doing it this way for a couple of years. Survival rate is pushing 80% .... clutches on the Osc are in the 400 egg range.
 
 

Incidentally, I feed frozen mysis and various flake foods.  
 
Have tried other foods as well but did not find a lot of difference in survival rate over simply feeding Formula 1 or Formula 2 a couple of times per day,  Hikari mysis often (we also raise seahorses so have to feed them mysis) and extra rots (we have a lot of rotifers (at least 3 buckets running per Reed batch method at all times) so everything gets rots as you have to harvest them everyday anyway ... no reason to waste them.      http://www.reed-mariculture.com/support_rotifers_culturing.html

Why should I harvest rots each day? I just want to know the rational. I have not had the best practices with my rots, but I don't believe this is at all related to my massive losses (Considering that my losses happen within 24 hrs and the last time it happened very quickly).
 
Thank you for your suggestions! I feel that more water, around 5g, will be useful to create a more stable environment.
 
I might try a tank hatch if things don't start going better. Thanks again!
 
 

The more often you harvest your rotifers, the more they will keep reproducing. I agree that this is probably not causing your problem though.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Daily harvests keeps the rotifer population younger (and, presumably, more healthy and nutritious). I actually did the math once. Yes, I am a geek. It's a thought problem, simplified like crazy. But, basically every closed culture will have a carrying capacity (based on food, density, ammonia, etc.) of some arbitrary number (I chose 4,000,000 here). If you look at the first chart (no water changes), you can see that you get a large clump of rot production and then those rots age as a group, only able to reproduce a small amount of the total population per day because of the max population limit. By diluting your population daily, more rots can reproduce daily and the whole population stays balanced and skewed more toward a younger population.
 

 

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Interesting chart .....
 
I do 50% daily harvests based on Reed's Rotifer Harvesting Math chart and one of their posts on production per day per age of the rotifers (old rotifers don't generate as many eggs - sorry, can't find that on their site now)   (http://www.rotifer.com/).
 
I agree that it is unlikely your harvest schedule is a factor as the fry (from what I've been told) don't each much for the first couple of days anyway.  
 
For a REALLY deep dive into raising rotifers please see Dr. Marini's article:  http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/9/breeder
 
 

I've seen Gresham post on fecundity based on age. That was after I made that chart though. Of course, adding that fact in would just emphasize the same trend that I was trying to get at in there.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Latest spawn- 6/29/11 6:00pm
 
Got high hopes for this batch. Although it seems smaller than the last. Maybe it's just more of an oval pattern. I'll have to take a picture and count.

Sorry I have missed this thread for a while Brian.
 
After I have reread this entire thread tonight I have a few thoughts on what I have read and comments based on my personal experience.
 
First.  Your clowns can have healthy spawns and eggs with feeding only twice a day.  Now I am not saying that more (3-4x) isn't better because it is but I have been raising clowns for a few years now and based on my job and schedule I can only feed 2x a day.  My current regimen is formula one flakes and pellets along with Rod's Fish only blend at every feeding.  I also cycle in frozen brine, mysis, and cyclopeze.
 
I realize that you are using your display water,  is it possible to lower your salinity to 1.024-1.025??  That is still a perfectly normal salinity range for a reef and would allow you to use your rotifers without having too big of a difference of salinity.  Rotifers can handle a change of .004-.005 without any problems in my experience.  I do agree with Tal and do practice myself that I have always been more successful using all broodstock water for the larva vs mixes of fresh & broodstock or all new fresh saltwater.  In my opinion your water quality is probably much better than the water in my broodstock system as I do not have any reef organisms.  I use a 10g tank with 5g of water from the broodstock in it with the sides blacked out.  I also noticed from a picture or two that your lights on your heaters are not blacked out??  Have you taped them off?  If not I would recommend doing so.
 
Now on the eggs/larva.  It looks like you have changed airstones in the recent pictures.  The last one I saw looks like a small white bar and if it is the one I'm using it is made by rena.  IF it is the same one it is the one that I have the highest success rate with (believe me I have tried a lot of different airstones) so I would not change it at this time.  Try to keep a fine mist of bubbles over the eggs,  if you over aerate them you'll know it as you'll blow the eggs off the pot.  I am not planning on hatching any clowns until next week but maybe I can find an old video of one that I have hatched to show you how much air I put on them.  Personally I have never dipped my larve eggs in over 4 years so I personally do not feel that it is necessary at this time.  I am discounting it for other applications but for clownfish I do not feel it is necessary.  What type of lighting are you using on your larva tank?   What wattage of bulb?  What is your lighting cycle?  I use the incadesent hoods with (2) 15w bulbs.  They fit nicely over the tank and will help control the light.  I run my lights on 24/7 from 2 hours after hatch until metamorphasis.  I feel this is especially important during the first 2-3 days after hatch.  If the larva are not proficient at feeding within 48-72 hours after hatch most likely they are going to die.  I have a clutch of Ocellaris right now that I believe that I lost 10-20 in the first 24 hours but only lost 6 after 24 hours and that included thru meta.  The total count after meta was 514 and now they are split up into 3 tanks and I'm doing some feed experiments on them.  Now I have had my share of 100% losses of clutches but it is not uncommon for me to have 90%+ survival rates after 24 hours post hatch.
 
Are you growing your rotifers on roti-grow and using roti-green on you greenwater?  I saw a post a while back about using roti-grow as your greenwater with the larva and thought maybe it was just a typo.
 
I know this is frustrating but we'll get you thru it   Once we figure out exactly what's going on your tanks will be full of babies.
 
Dave

I really appreciate everyone's effort. There is a video of my last hatch with air flow.

To answer some of your questions:
-Over the past few weeks I have been running my reef at 1.0235. Which is pretty low for a reef but I wanted to see if I had improvements with my eggs. None really noted yet.
-I have not blacked out the heater but I will do so. Thanks for reminding me!
-I have been using the Rena micro bubbler. I thought this could be the root of my issues with poor oxygenation and possible ingestion of bubbles by the larva, each causing quick death.
-My lighting is a simple 14w light bulb that is quite an expensive one that I bought to use with my snakes, when I had them. I think it is just a daylight bulb that they charged me x3 as much for...lol. I had been using 16on/8off. I will plan on keeping 24/7 next time.
-I am using roti-grow for my larva cultures and then roti-green for green water. That must of been a typo that you saw.
Thank you all again for your time and encouragement. I really appreciate it. Here is a picture of my current batch laid yesterday. It is smaller for some reason.

 

That is quite a bit more air than I run over my eggs to hatch them out.  I usually run quite a bit less than that basically just enough to keep the eggs lightly moving around.  You could be damaging the larva with too much air.  Have you had problems blowing the eggs off the pot?  I will try to see if I have a video of one of mine set up on the eggs.  1.0235 should be fine for the eggs.  I run my broodstock at 1.024 so you're right there.  Did you use all reef tank water last time?  Can you describe for me where the larva were swimming in the water column for me?  I remember you saying high?  Was it up at the surface or just up swimming around in the upper part of the column?
 
Since all of your deaths have been early I personally would keep the light on 24/7 after hatch for the few few days at least.  Also can you describe the density of you rotifers?  In my best description At least for the first few days I try to make it so the larva don't have to swim more than 1-2 body lengths to encounter their next rotifer.  If the density is too low the potential is there for them to not become proficient feeders but since your deaths are happening so quickly I would not say that is the issue right now. 

Sorry for the delay in response.
-I have not had issues with blowing the eggs off. I have tried it at different levels and I read to err on the side of too much air. I thought I was having fungus issues so I have slowly increased air flow.
-I have always used 100% reef/broad stock water.
-The last time(my most "successful" attempt), the larva were swimming in the top 1/3 of the water column. Or at least 90% were. I noticed 2-3 pointing straight up towards the water surface, away from the sides of the tank. I also noticed one with a "bent" tail at 12 hours old.
-Given your description of rot density, I would say that mine are way more dense. My density at least what my cultures are at. I would say at least 5 rots per body length of larva.......at least. Maybe my rotifer density is poisoning them. I strain out 5-6 gallons of rotifer culture and add that to my 3-5 larva tank. Sounds like ALOT now that I type it.

That does sound like a lot of rotifers to me also.  I would say you could always have a little more than less but that is a lot.  When I turn on the lights for my larva for the first time I typically strain out about 1g of rotifers for 5g of larval water.  Now rotifer density of the cultures does play into that but if the tank is as dense as you describe then I would say your cultures are pretty dense.  If your larva are at the top 1/3 of the water column then I would say your lighting is pretty much right on.

Alright hatch night..........updates to come.

Looks good so far. The clay pot had no dead ones left on it. Before I would typically have a handful left on the pot that were white in color but this time only empty egg casings. I also didn't notice very many dead on the floor of the tank. Therefore, I expected to see more larva swimming around but I only counted 35-40. It is a bit more difficult to count them because I choose to keep two air lines going(one under the heater and I stuck the one that was used for the pot against the side wall) at a gentle flow rate . I can see that when some larva get too close they will tumble away. I thought I would risk losing a few due to injury than losing all because of poor oxygenation (if that is my downfall in the past?, still not sure). I also choose to used course bubbles this time because this is the one variable that I wanted to change. I will keep updates coming today.

Well, I'm past the 24 hour mark and I think I can say this is my most successful clutch to date. It's true that I had a few live to day 4 or 5 in the past but was only a couple larva. This time was a smaller clutch of eggs but I still have about 50 larva past 24 hours. Pretty much all I changed is that I am now using course air bubbles. I switch from micro bubbles because I really didn't know what else to try. I also only strained about 2.5 gallons of my rotifer culture to use in 5 gallons of larva water. I used to do at least 6 gallons of rotifer culture(strained). I still kept it 100% broodstock water. I wanted to try less variables to narrow down what is working and what isn't. Somebody on a different forum gave my some good suggestions and I will read through his journal and post here the other changes I will attempt.

I had over 50 before I turned out the lights at midnight. I woke up, about 8am and could only count 21. I started a slow drip(1 drip every 30-40sec.) of brood stock water. I will remove about a gallon and add a gallon by this method each day. What do you think?

If your getting so many dieing off so quickly when do you add rots? immediately or the morning after hatch? Also you say you have cut down the amount of rot culture you are adding to the tank, but it's the density that is important.
Might be worth checking water params when so many die too see if this is the issue. Also trying to get a handle on the density of the rots , not just the volume of water strained.

I most recently tried adding the rots in morning about 8 hours after hatching. I would describe the density of rotifers in the larva tank at 1-2 per length of larva. To tell the truth I haven't checked water parameters besides temp. and specific gravity. Most of the time I lost the clutch with 24 hours. I wouldn't think water quality could be so bad in such a short period of time. This is another reason I decided to be proactive with water changes. I plan on doing a 20% waterchange daily. Should I test for more than ammonia? Somebody told me that the first 8-10 clutches of breeding clowns would be unviable. Any truth to this? I believe I am around the 8th.

So you are about day 3 ish now?  I would think that by the 8th-ish clutch the eggs should be fine.  Are you turning the lights off at night?  I personally do not turn off the lights til the larva hit meta, it allows the weak feeders the opportunity to be better feeders.  I seem to remember reading somewhere that you have approx 72 hours post hatch for the babies to be proficient or you can have higher mortality.  If you are about 72 hours and experiencing higher deaths I would look at lighting also.  I appears that this has been your best clutch yet so we are in the right direction.

I don't want to complicate things here but, with my clowns, I run them on a 14hr lighting schedule from day 1. On the contrary, I light my dottyback larvae 24/7 until meta.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Day #4- Larva count:21
 
Recap-So 48 hours post hatch I decided to turn out the lights for 8 hours. I lost over 50%. I have not turned out the lights since (24 hours/day) and I haven't lost any. I know other factors are included but this is my experience. I did a 20% water change yesterday and plan on doing another one today. This is day #4 and I have 21 larva alive. They seem to be slowly moving around the tank and I will see one dart about 2" once in a while. Although, mostly they seem to be floating in the same spot. Rot density is still good with the addition of more roti-green last night. Now, the water is clear enough to see the bottom of the tank but no larva are swimming against the sides. I want to keep the rotifers nutritionally packed so maybe I will add some more roti-grow for the rest of today and attempt to transfer into a Otohime A tomorrow. They don't look interested today in the OA. I appreciate everybody's input and please don't feel that I'm ignoring your advice. As you can see everybody has different ways of doing things and I will try them all. The great part about it is if one thing doesn't work for me I can try another way. Thanks again and updates to come. On a side note, I'm glad to have some progress with success. I know I have a long way to go but.......

Glad to see your making progress Bri. Keep it up and it will eventually come together.
You are right,we all have our own little rituals and ways of doing things. Its the pooling of ideas that makes this site so great!

When you start the OtoA, do it sparingly. I just drop a tiny bit on the surface and swish a little around in the water with my fingers. Don't overfeed at this point when they aren't all eating it. I usually try once a day until I see most of them eating it.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Day #5(night of)- Larva count:21-22
Looking good so far. Larva look to have full bellies. These are my first so I think that's what I'm seeing, a slight bulge in the abdominal area. I also can start to see an orange tint to some of them . Still on rotifers, I tried Otohime A several times today. A very small amount on the surface and some in the water column. No larva seem to be interested. Although, it's hard for me to notice a difference between Oto A and rotifers, so I don't know how they can. Should I clear up the water with a sponge filter before trying Otohime A? I just notice that none come from even an inch away to get any Oto A. I even let the water clear up a bit. I added more roti-green tonight and will try Oto A again tomorrow.

I did a one gallon water change on day #4 with broodstock water. I used a rigid tube to scrape the bottom after a syphon was started.  And today I just added a gallon to increase total water to about 6 gallons.

Don't over do the OtoA. It usually takes them a couple of days to take it. I cut back on the RGreen when they are eating the Oto and then add the sponge filter around day 7-10.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Thanks Tal. I am using a very small amount, just enough to coat about 1/8 of a finger tip. That stuff really goes a long way once it hits the water. Will rotifers be an OK food source until day 10, given it takes that long to get them on Otohime A? When I do wean them onto Oto A, how many times per day should I feed?

As long as you're using RotiGreen to keep the rots fed and reproducing they will be fine until the larvae transition over to the Oto A.
 
When you have them eating the Oto A I'd suggest feeding 4X per day if possible.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Update: I went back and counted how many spawns I've had. I will try to label them this in order to keep things straight.
 
Clutch #8 is on day #7. It appears as if I still have 21-22 larva. They are acting a bit weird and I will post a video I took last night. They have been hanging out on the sides, not really swimming into the sides just kind of resting. My video will show my roti-green concentration, I think it is close enough. Maybe a light cycle of 24/7 is catching up to them and they are tired. Like going out to the bar for a week straight........so I've heard.
 
Clutch #9 was spawned on 7/13/11. This one looks much larger and better uniformity.

Here is the video of Clutch #8 taken the night of day#6. What do you think? None died over the night and at least half are back in the water column. Sorry about the focusing, I had to switch to manual.....I really need a tripod.

http://www.metacafe.com/w...iprion_percula_day_6/#

They look really good. Nice job.

Looking Good Brian.  I would say you have plenty of roti-green in the tank.  I would maybe even start backing it off a little.  Call me old school but I still feed bbs to my clowns from about day 5-6 to about day 14 while i'm weaning onto Oto A.  They will typically always take to the bbs and quiker than Oto and it fills them more while they're adjusting.  I know that there are people that do not use bbs anymore ( I think Tal goes straight from rotifers to Oto A.) but the last clutch I raised I had a 99% survival after 24 hours so I do what works for me

Clutch #8 Day #9- Larva count: at least 20
Maybe I will try bbs sometime. It looks as if they are taking to the Otohime A. I haven't add anymore roti-green since yesterday afternoon and the water is clearing up, although the rots are still there. Should I try to get most out because they might not not nutritious for much longer? I notice a definite change in body shape in all but only 1 has a white stripe. It looks as if another two larva might be forming their first stripe very soon. Shall I start doing water changes and add my sponge filter? I will post some pictures of the settlement soon. I would prefer they all have stripes before claiming settlement but I officially have at least one that is post-meta. Thanks for all the help. My next clutch is at least twice the size and I hope to have more clownfish than I know what to do with. This brings up different issues but one step at a time right now. 

Congrats! I've never had a problem letting the rots just get eaten up or die off. I add a sponge filter a few days after meta is complete. Siphon detritus as needed and replace with new SW.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."