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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Thursday, June 16, 2011 8:29 PM
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I take parent tank water right before I pull the eggs. I thought ammonia levels wouldn't spike for 2-3 days. To be honest I never tested ammonia levels!So this could be an issue. Would die off happen so rapidly if ammonia levels were too high? Is it possible to have the levels in fatal amounts within 14 hours?
No chance of Lysol or anything else being introduced into the tank. It's in my basement and we don't clean with aerosols down there or even much in the upstairs for that matter. I could see if something like this happened once in a great while but this is a consistent problem I'm having.
How can I detect a bacterial bloom? Again, water is taken out of my reef tank. I do run MB7/vodka in my reef. Would a bacteria bloom happen so fast?
Thank you for the response!
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Friday, June 17, 2011 7:21 AM
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Sorry to hear this. I thought they were going to make it this time. I have no idea if I am supposed to and this is only my second time trying to raise fry but I add ammonia reducer each day. I can't say that I recommend this or not but I really need to get a new test kit because it always shows some ammonia on anything I test.
Maybe you are on to something with using your water from your reef system. I would try using some different water next time. Does the salinity matter in a larval tank? I know mine is 1.020 because that is what Tal suggested but I don't know if it matters. You can get water next time from me if you want or just try some freshly made water, it can't hurt.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Friday, June 17, 2011 7:54 AM
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 For some reason I can only reply if I use a smiley face sooo disregard my animated friends here, lol.... Question: maybe I am wrong.... but in taking the parent water from the main tank, that has the filtration , and placing the water into a smaller area with -0- filtration... that is where I would think the levels would build up quickly, although you would not notice it in the main DT. Do you use any badges on tha larvae tanks? (ammonia badge)? I also add the Prime to the larval tank. But I don't use all parent water, I have a tank up and running, with similar sg,temp,and I add about 2 cups of the parent water.... maybe you can set up a fresh tank now... have the water in there bubbling/circulating, with the foam filter.... then when you have the larvae or eggs ready on hatch night - remove the foam filter, turn the bubbler down to a slower count, tint your water green and enjoy your success! 
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Friday, June 17, 2011 12:32 PM
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Using water from the broodstock tank is standard procedure and not a bad thing to do. I doubt that a build up of ammonia was the problem in this case. I'm guessing a lack of oxygen due to the lower flow.
Ammonia badges are pretty worthless from what I've been told in the past.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Friday, June 17, 2011 12:46 PM
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 Originally Posted by Fishtal
Using water from the broodstock tank is standard procedure and not a bad thing to do. I doubt that a build up of ammonia was the problem in this case. I'm guessing a lack of oxygen due to the lower flow.
Ammonia badges are pretty worthless from what I've been told in the past.
Doesn't he have these in a reef tank though? Do you think the vodka and other chemicals coming from whatever he doses might affect the larvae? At this point there really isn't much he can change unless the air was turned way down. I would try different water you really do not have anything to lose at this point.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Saturday, June 18, 2011 8:52 PM
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I still think that using water from where the eggs were is the best idea. Using an airstone with coarser bubbles is what I would try next. I don't think the white ones with the fine bubbles is giving you enough oxygen exchange.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Sunday, June 26, 2011 4:07 PM
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First comment on any explanation of "this is what I do" should be the required "and it is only one of hundreds of ways this can be done". We allow the fry to stay in the display tank with the parents taking care of them until they release. On the night I think they will hatch (yep, I miss sometimes) I turn off all the lights in the room where the tank sits (ALL lights ... I make the room pitch black) and turn off all the pumps on the display. I add the airline tube which will be used in the fry tank to the display tank to keep a bit of water flow / O2 exchange. Starting about 30 minutes after the room is dark, I use a small LED light against the side of the tank to check for release. If they have not released, I wait 15 minutes and check again. When they start to release, I hold the light against the side of the tank to draw the fry to one corner of the display tank. I scoop them out with a white teacup and move them to the fry tank --- this is a 2 G tank prepped earlier (add a few drops of bleach to the tank, fill it with water, let it sit, add Prime or Amquel etc, rinse with tap water, rinse with RO water). We have used a larval snagger a few times, but do find just scooping them out with the teacup works well for us. After all the fry have been moved, we drain the fry tank to only about 1/2 full. Add rotifers and Nanochloropsis. Move the airline to the fry tank. We don't use airstones, have been told the fry ingest the little bubbles and die. We have been doing it this way for a couple of years. Survival rate is pushing 80% .... clutches on the Osc are in the 400 egg range.
<message edited by fperkins on Sunday, June 26, 2011 5:56 PM>
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Sunday, June 26, 2011 4:16 PM
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Incidentally, I feed frozen mysis and various flake foods. Have tried other foods as well but did not find a lot of difference in survival rate over simply feeding Formula 1 or Formula 2 a couple of times per day, Hikari mysis often (we also raise seahorses so have to feed them mysis) and extra rots (we have a lot of rotifers (at least 3 buckets running per Reed batch method at all times) so everything gets rots as you have to harvest them everyday anyway ... no reason to waste them. http://www.reed-mariculture.com/support_rotifers_culturing.html
<message edited by fperkins on Sunday, June 26, 2011 5:57 PM>
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Monday, June 27, 2011 4:06 PM
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Why should I harvest rots each day? I just want to know the rational. I have not had the best practices with my rots, but I don't believe this is at all related to my massive losses (Considering that my losses happen within 24 hrs and the last time it happened very quickly).
Thank you for your suggestions! I feel that more water, around 5g, will be useful to create a more stable environment.
I might try a tank hatch if things don't start going better. Thanks again!
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Monday, June 27, 2011 4:12 PM
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The more often you harvest your rotifers, the more they will keep reproducing. I agree that this is probably not causing your problem though.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Monday, June 27, 2011 4:25 PM
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Daily harvests keeps the rotifer population younger (and, presumably, more healthy and nutritious). I actually did the math once. Yes, I am a geek. It's a thought problem, simplified like crazy. But, basically every closed culture will have a carrying capacity (based on food, density, ammonia, etc.) of some arbitrary number (I chose 4,000,000 here). If you look at the first chart (no water changes), you can see that you get a large clump of rot production and then those rots age as a group, only able to reproduce a small amount of the total population per day because of the max population limit. By diluting your population daily, more rots can reproduce daily and the whole population stays balanced and skewed more toward a younger population.  
--Andy, the bucket man. "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Monday, June 27, 2011 10:25 PM
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Interesting chart ..... I do 50% daily harvests based on Reed's Rotifer Harvesting Math chart and one of their posts on production per day per age of the rotifers (old rotifers don't generate as many eggs - sorry, can't find that on their site now) ( http://www.rotifer.com/). I agree that it is unlikely your harvest schedule is a factor as the fry (from what I've been told) don't each much for the first couple of days anyway. For a REALLY deep dive into raising rotifers please see Dr. Marini's article: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/9/breeder
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Tuesday, June 28, 2011 7:50 PM
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I've seen Gresham post on fecundity based on age. That was after I made that chart though. Of course, adding that fact in would just emphasize the same trend that I was trying to get at in there.
--Andy, the bucket man. "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Wednesday, June 29, 2011 9:17 PM
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Latest spawn- 6/29/11 6:00pm Got high hopes for this batch. Although it seems smaller than the last. Maybe it's just more of an oval pattern. I'll have to take a picture and count.
<message edited by BriGuy31+ on Thursday, July 7, 2011 7:33 PM>
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Wednesday, June 29, 2011 11:17 PM
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Sorry I have missed this thread for a while Brian. After I have reread this entire thread tonight I have a few thoughts on what I have read and comments based on my personal experience. First. Your clowns can have healthy spawns and eggs with feeding only twice a day. Now I am not saying that more (3-4x) isn't better because it is but I have been raising clowns for a few years now and based on my job and schedule I can only feed 2x a day. My current regimen is formula one flakes and pellets along with Rod's Fish only blend at every feeding. I also cycle in frozen brine, mysis, and cyclopeze. I realize that you are using your display water, is it possible to lower your salinity to 1.024-1.025?? That is still a perfectly normal salinity range for a reef and would allow you to use your rotifers without having too big of a difference of salinity. Rotifers can handle a change of .004-.005 without any problems in my experience. I do agree with Tal and do practice myself that I have always been more successful using all broodstock water for the larva vs mixes of fresh & broodstock or all new fresh saltwater. In my opinion your water quality is probably much better than the water in my broodstock system as I do not have any reef organisms. I use a 10g tank with 5g of water from the broodstock in it with the sides blacked out. I also noticed from a picture or two that your lights on your heaters are not blacked out?? Have you taped them off? If not I would recommend doing so. Now on the eggs/larva. It looks like you have changed airstones in the recent pictures. The last one I saw looks like a small white bar and if it is the one I'm using it is made by rena. IF it is the same one it is the one that I have the highest success rate with (believe me I have tried a lot of different airstones) so I would not change it at this time. Try to keep a fine mist of bubbles over the eggs, if you over aerate them you'll know it as you'll blow the eggs off the pot. I am not planning on hatching any clowns until next week but maybe I can find an old video of one that I have hatched to show you how much air I put on them. Personally I have never dipped my larve eggs in over 4 years so I personally do not feel that it is necessary at this time. I am discounting it for other applications but for clownfish I do not feel it is necessary. What type of lighting are you using on your larva tank? What wattage of bulb? What is your lighting cycle? I use the incadesent hoods with (2) 15w bulbs. They fit nicely over the tank and will help control the light. I run my lights on 24/7 from 2 hours after hatch until metamorphasis. I feel this is especially important during the first 2-3 days after hatch. If the larva are not proficient at feeding within 48-72 hours after hatch most likely they are going to die. I have a clutch of Ocellaris right now that I believe that I lost 10-20 in the first 24 hours but only lost 6 after 24 hours and that included thru meta. The total count after meta was 514 and now they are split up into 3 tanks and I'm doing some feed experiments on them. Now I have had my share of 100% losses of clutches but it is not uncommon for me to have 90%+ survival rates after 24 hours post hatch. Are you growing your rotifers on roti-grow and using roti-green on you greenwater? I saw a post a while back about using roti-grow as your greenwater with the larva and thought maybe it was just a typo. I know this is frustrating but we'll get you thru it Once we figure out exactly what's going on your tanks will be full of babies. Dave
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Thursday, June 30, 2011 8:49 AM
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I really appreciate everyone's effort. There is a video of my last hatch with air flow.  To answer some of your questions: -Over the past few weeks I have been running my reef at 1.0235. Which is pretty low for a reef but I wanted to see if I had improvements with my eggs. None really noted yet. -I have not blacked out the heater but I will do so. Thanks for reminding me! -I have been using the Rena micro bubbler. I thought this could be the root of my issues with poor oxygenation and possible ingestion of bubbles by the larva, each causing quick death. -My lighting is a simple 14w light bulb that is quite an expensive one that I bought to use with my snakes, when I had them. I think it is just a daylight bulb that they charged me x3 as much for...lol. I had been using 16on/8off. I will plan on keeping 24/7 next time. -I am using roti-grow for my larva cultures and then roti-green for green water. That must of been a typo that you saw. Thank you all again for your time and encouragement. I really appreciate it. Here is a picture of my current batch laid yesterday. It is smaller for some reason. 
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Friday, July 1, 2011 12:08 AM
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That is quite a bit more air than I run over my eggs to hatch them out. I usually run quite a bit less than that basically just enough to keep the eggs lightly moving around. You could be damaging the larva with too much air. Have you had problems blowing the eggs off the pot? I will try to see if I have a video of one of mine set up on the eggs. 1.0235 should be fine for the eggs. I run my broodstock at 1.024 so you're right there. Did you use all reef tank water last time? Can you describe for me where the larva were swimming in the water column for me? I remember you saying high? Was it up at the surface or just up swimming around in the upper part of the column?
Since all of your deaths have been early I personally would keep the light on 24/7 after hatch for the few few days at least. Also can you describe the density of you rotifers? In my best description At least for the first few days I try to make it so the larva don't have to swim more than 1-2 body lengths to encounter their next rotifer. If the density is too low the potential is there for them to not become proficient feeders but since your deaths are happening so quickly I would not say that is the issue right now.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Saturday, July 2, 2011 3:53 PM
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Sorry for the delay in response.
-I have not had issues with blowing the eggs off. I have tried it at different levels and I read to err on the side of too much air. I thought I was having fungus issues so I have slowly increased air flow.
-I have always used 100% reef/broad stock water.
-The last time(my most "successful" attempt), the larva were swimming in the top 1/3 of the water column. Or at least 90% were. I noticed 2-3 pointing straight up towards the water surface, away from the sides of the tank. I also noticed one with a "bent" tail at 12 hours old.
-Given your description of rot density, I would say that mine are way more dense. My density at least what my cultures are at. I would say at least 5 rots per body length of larva.......at least. Maybe my rotifer density is poisoning them. I strain out 5-6 gallons of rotifer culture and add that to my 3-5 larva tank. Sounds like ALOT now that I type it.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Sunday, July 3, 2011 9:41 AM
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That does sound like a lot of rotifers to me also. I would say you could always have a little more than less but that is a lot. When I turn on the lights for my larva for the first time I typically strain out about 1g of rotifers for 5g of larval water. Now rotifer density of the cultures does play into that but if the tank is as dense as you describe then I would say your cultures are pretty dense. If your larva are at the top 1/3 of the water column then I would say your lighting is pretty much right on.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: [Amphiprion percula ]
Thursday, July 7, 2011 7:41 PM
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Alright hatch night..........updates to come.
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