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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Monday, April 4, 2011 11:48 AM
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Umm_Fish, I still think that BBS is the way to go with sexy shrimp. My BBS lasted about 10-12 days in the breeding tank without dying and that is almost half way to settlement for sexy shrimp. I rarely saw the sexy shrimp not have a BBS in their mouths.
Also, I did start off with newly made saltwater and then added tank water slowly for about a week. It was about till 16-17 days that I saw very small hydroids (2-3), the sexy shrimp were a few days from settlement.
In other words, these larva are very hardy compared to other larva I have read about, and will tolerate a wider range of variables.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Monday, April 4, 2011 1:50 PM
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 Originally Posted by pj86
Any updates?
I recently received an AmScope with digital camera as a gift. It has been distracting me from my kreisel, but now the camera is broken, so its back to the kreisel until I get that figured out. This is my scope net, pick a thread: :] http://www.mbisite.org/Forums/tm.aspx?m=51694 http://www.reefkeepingfor....php/topic,1820.0.html http://www.nano-reef.com/...x.php?showtopic=267862 I've made a few incisions on the jug for the loc-line outlets and will probably glue them in place today. Then I'll run a few tests before deciding the precise shape and placement of the screen separator. That reminds me, what micron do I need for sexy-shrimp larvae and what micron for BVN larvae? Link
Originally Posted by Umm_fish? Most people don't use live rock. I wouldn't.
Lots of people use tank water, but I think that's playing with fire. I tend to let my larval tanks cycle on their own before I add larvae. It takes a long time so I have to keep more than one going all the time, but I think it's a better bet than fighting hydroids. I'm considering trying out bacterial starters for the larval tanks. I think they are a waste for display tanks (where time alone will get you all the nitrifying bacteria you'll ever need and you only have to do it once), but I can see using them to jump start a larval tank since you have to do it so often. Excellent advice, thank you. Since my brood tank might be part of the system, I could rely on its shallow sand bed for the nitrifying bacteria and perform partial water changes with freshly mixed saltwater. But from what I've read from others, mature tank water can contain a lot of beneficial cues for egg release, etc. I wonder if it would be possible for me to actually inspect a small vial of water with my microscope to ensure no pests, then add that to the tank for any benefits all the little diatoms and what not might provide. It would be interesting to see if even just a few drops of mature tank water could do the trick. The lowest power lens is a 4/0.1. At that magnification, I should be able to see anything harmful, correct?
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Wednesday, April 6, 2011 10:29 PM
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Whys Alive, still think it would be really difficult to inspect the whole vile of water for any pest. So how are you advancing with the project? When are you going to purchase the mature sexy shrimp?
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Thursday, April 7, 2011 3:04 AM
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Originally Posted by pj86 Whys Alive, still think it would be really difficult to inspect the whole vile of water for any pest. So how are you advancing with the project? When are you going to purchase the mature sexy shrimp? I think what you meant to say was... Newly hatched Sexy-Shrimp larvae are approximately 2mm in size. That equals 2000 microns. Based on the picture you've provided, newly hatched larvae appear to be no more than 5 times longer than they are wide. Thus my mesh should be no larger than 400 microns. Sorry jayelblock, you might lose a few of the smallest ones using 500 micron mesh. I don't think jelliquariums were designed with sexy-shrimp in mind. I've obtained a large tube of REEF-SAFE silicon glue. It seems the hardware stores here no longer stock aquarium silicon, so I'm using GE 1 ( no bioseal or anti-fungal). I wanted to glue some things together tonight, but now it's late. It will also require 48 hours to dry, so.... Patience is a virtue. 
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Thursday, April 7, 2011 6:51 AM
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I would be careful with the mess, considering the sexy shrimps appendages are much smaller. To be on the safe side purchase 3 different micron sizes and see which one doesn't cause them to get stuck.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Thursday, April 7, 2011 9:23 AM
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Originally Posted by But from what I've read from others, mature tank water can contain a lot of beneficial cues for egg release, etc. This is a larval rearing tank, right? Eggs should be released already. Really, the biggest larval killers are water quality and pests. I understand how using mature water cuts down on the water quality issues, but it also opens you to a world of hurt on the pests. Just be careful, yeah? My solution is just to take care that the larvae are going into already matured and cycled water that has less chance of introducing pests. I _know_ that my brood water has hydroids, so I don't dare introduce that to a larval tank. I guess that you could run your brood water through a 1 micron screen. Theoretically that should take care of the pest issues.
--Andy, the bucket man. "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Tuesday, April 12, 2011 3:57 AM
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Originally Posted by TheUnfocusedOne
:happy: Updates?
In a word: Beauty. Is it possible for a kreisel to be too gentle? I just did my final pre-glue flow test. I don't even have the screen in yet and the tiny bits of chaeto float right by the opening as if there wasn't even an opening there. Those that stray, appear to doubt themselves and float back to rejoin the others. I would give a video, but it is of little use with my PowerShot. I will say this tho. Once all the little bubbles finally floated free of the drum, there were no deviant upwellings or cross currents. I honestly could not ask for a better result. Link
Originally Posted by pj86
I would be careful with the [mesh], considering the sexy shrimps appendages are much smaller. To be on the safe side purchase 3 different micron sizes and see which one doesn't cause them to get stuck.
Amazon has a great selection of micron meshes to choose from. They come in polypropylene, nylon, and polyester. I chose nylon for its strength and resistance to deformity. Note: polypropylene is buoyant in fresh water. I bought both 425 and 250 micron. I bought the 250 mostly for the BVN portion of this project. Not that I know what micron I need for BVN larvae, I just figured 250 was as small as I wanted to go with regards to detritus inside the kreisel. I couldn't actually find the size of newly hatched BVN anywhere on the internet. I'll have to measure them later to force a defined state.  Link
Originally Posted by Umm_fish?
This is a larval rearing tank, right? Eggs should be released already. Really, the biggest larval killers are water quality and pests. I understand how using mature water cuts down on the water quality issues, but it also opens you to a world of hurt on the pests. Just be careful, yeah? My solution is just to take care that the larvae are going into already matured and cycled water that has less chance of introducing pests. I _know_ that my brood water has hydroids, so I don't dare introduce that to a larval tank.
I guess that you could run your brood water through a 1 micron screen. Theoretically that should take care of the pest issues.
I had the same thought after seeing it on Amazon, but I'd still be worried about pathogens, so.... mature water can wait. The kreisel will probably be in system with the brood tank however, and I wanted to put a small frog spawn in there with the shrimp. Would it be safe after a dip in coralRX? Anyway, thanks for hanging in there while I've been busy. This project is really only one of several incredibly wonderful things going on in my life right now. Some might even say I'm blessed. :]
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Sunday, April 17, 2011 6:52 AM
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I can't wait to see pictures of your kreisel in action. Congratulations on a well-executed design, and I'm pleased to hear that your life beyond reef keeping is so satisfying as well. All things in balance...
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Sunday, April 17, 2011 9:01 AM
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Congratulations on getting it working! If you are going to have this on a broodstock system, I would at least filter the water before it gets to the kreisel. There'll be tons of detritus in the broodstock water (if not initially then eventually) and you don't want to clog the kreisel. The planktonic forms of some hydroids are _tiny_ though. (I have a video around somewhere that's probably a hydroid medusa if you'd like to see it.) From what I recall, much smaller than a rotifer, so you won't be stopping those with any screen that doesn't need to be changed very, very often.
I have no clue what size BVN are. They have veliger larvae, though, just like snails. If they feed in the planktonic stage (if they _have_ a planktonic stage), I would assume that it'll be on phytoplankton of some type. So, I would assume that you are going to need to fill (and retain) a lot of phyto in that kreisel while they are planktonic. On the other hand, slugs like Berghia don't feed while planktonic so you might luck out there. But I would plan for the ability to isolate the kreisel tank from the rest of the system so that you can just turn that tank dark green (or brown) with phyto when necessary. You wouldn't want to include your broodstock tank in that.
Again, I'd like to urge you to consider keeping your two systems separate. In the ocean, all these larvae are way up near the top of the water column, far away from any solid surfaces where filter predators would live. You can't replicate that. You are designing the perfect home for small filter feeders and larvae count as good food for them.
--Andy, the bucket man. "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Sunday, April 17, 2011 2:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jayelblock
I can't wait to see pictures of your kreisel in action. Congratulations on a well-executed design, and I'm pleased to hear that your life beyond reef keeping is so satisfying as well. All things in balance...
Indeed.  I recently purchased a 2.5g glass tank for the breeder, from a national chain that I will not name. While there, I picked up a couple things I want to share with you. One:  I thought it might be handy to have a smaller tube of silicon for gluing in the screen. I have seen this tube before and assumed it was clear. It's BLACK. Interestingly, it says no where on the tube that it is black. Perhaps it mentioned it on the blister pack it came in. I do not know. Two: While collecting my supplies, I took a look in their saltwater aquariums. One tank contained a Chocolate Chip Sea Star. It was on it's back, lying on the sand, all arms curled back, and contents spilling from its mouth. I informed the attendant that unless they were feeding it to a Harlequin Shrimp, then it was a casualty that needed removing. The attendant thanked me for noticing, proceeded to flip it over, then said "It fine, it just fell off the glass." While these sort of stories are not new for that chain, I can only hope Hitler and those like him have been continuously reincarnated as the spineless inverts in their tanks. Just so you know. :] Also, here's some help when cutting nylon mesh.  You can't mark it with pencil and you probably shouldn't mark it with marker. So draw the lines you need on a sheet of card stock, tape it down, then lay your mesh over your outline and tape down the corners. Now you can cut your pattern with a box knife. Note: do not use any portion of the mesh that came into contact with the tape; adhesives can be toxic. Link
Originally Posted by Umm_fish?
Congratulations on getting it working! If you are going to have this on a broodstock system, I would at least filter the water before it gets to the kreisel. There'll be tons of detritus in the broodstock water (if not initially then eventually) and you don't want to clog the kreisel. The planktonic forms of some hydroids are _tiny_ though. (I have a video around somewhere that's probably a hydroid medusa if you'd like to see it.) From what I recall, much smaller than a rotifer, so you won't be stopping those with any screen that doesn't need to be changed very, very often.
I have no clue what size BVN are. They have veliger larvae, though, just like snails. If they feed in the planktonic stage (if they _have_ a planktonic stage), I would assume that it'll be on phytoplankton of some type. So, I would assume that you are going to need to fill (and retain) a lot of phyto in that kreisel while they are planktonic. On the other hand, slugs like Berghia don't feed while planktonic so you might luck out there. But I would plan for the ability to isolate the kreisel tank from the rest of the system so that you can just turn that tank dark green (or brown) with phyto when necessary. You wouldn't want to include your broodstock tank in that.
Again, I'd like to urge you to consider keeping your two systems separate. In the ocean, all these larvae are way up near the top of the water column, far away from any solid surfaces where filter predators would live. You can't replicate that. You are designing the perfect home for small filter feeders and larvae count as good food for them.
I knew you've been holding out on me. Thank you! -------------------- I know the photos above probably aren't the ones (note: now there's a funny word.) you were hoping for. So allow me to reiterate. This is not a battle for a one man army. What success in this endeavor will require is ample experimentation. That means I need you. It is entirely possible that someone before me has in fact discovered the proper BVN cue, but never knew it, because their kreisel sucked bilge. While I have a great deal of confidence in my design, there is really no reason short of divine inspiration to believe my design is somehow the "right" one. If you need an incentive beyond discovery, then here it is. Breeding BVN can't be patented, but a kreisel most certainly can. When FWE stops working, the right design could be worth a fortune $$$. That said, I'm not going to show you my loc-line and screen design just yet. To put it simply... I'll show you mine if you show me yours!
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Thursday, April 21, 2011 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Spencer7 Ur title is very misleading... Leading, yes. Misleading is something different. Some of you are probably scratching your heads wondering, what the heck am I doing that I can't just cut my screen with a pair of scissors? I'll give you a hint. I just finished gluing it in. Yep! I've been working on it for the last 5 days. :] It's crazy-awesome. This kreisel is the best model rocket I've ever worked on. I could make this drum 100 different ways and have a lot of fun with each and every one. As it turns out, the black silicon glue not only cures in 5 minutes, but it's rather stylish on my write drum. I might need to put a flame paint job on this puppy. Seriously persons, get involved; have fun with me. I've shown you all the basic materials you need and where to get them. They aren't expensive. Probably the single most significant element of my design is the PVC overflow with micron sock. Just with that and this drum, I promise you, any design you make will likely be superior to those $400 dollar pieces of detritus sold on the internet. So if you've ever had fun building a model rocket, or something similar, and you're into saltwater, then this hobby is for you. I've created a forum for collaboration. If any of you have the guts to join me in discovery, we can work out an intellectual-property sharing agreement, whereby we all share and profit in common. We can hire a lawyer and have a contract drafted, once we determine as a group the nature of that contract. Why? Because working as a team will allow for 'control groups' and 'experimental groups'. Then we can knock down the variables one at a time, until we reach our goal. This is about working together, not about stealing ideas. Join me.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Sunday, April 24, 2011 2:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mndfreeze Suddenly this seems shady! I'll get involved when you start the BVN project. I'm currently very very very angry at my sexy shrimp and want nothing to do wit their species at the moment. I'm just a guy with opinions...  {whistling innocently} I've finished gluing in my loc-line outlets. They do intersect the jug, but maintain a very low profile. It really is coming together very nicely. I've taken a black sharpie marker to the outside of the glass, having measured then marked the precise placement of my overflow and jug. Now with these outlines in place, gluing in the overflow will be easy, but the hardest part of all still remains. My screen design required I glue it in first and my jug design means I now have no means for reaching inside the jug. So the question is, how do I glue the two circular seams bonding the jug to the two sides of the tank? I've been proceeding forward with the assumption that I would figure something out. Fortunately, I believe I have. It will require two new tools of my own making and a combination of solutions. But I have no shortage of determination; I'm itching for an unveiling. It will be another week or so before I have any video. In the mean time, check out my unstoppable ally. They have the unique power and privilege to speak of me when and where... I can't speak back! ...Most can only dream of it.
<message edited by Whys Alives on Sunday, April 24, 2011 2:20 AM>
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Sunday, April 24, 2011 8:47 AM
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Originally Posted by I knew you've been holding out on me. Thank you! I don't know what you mean. I'm not trying to hold anything back. I just don't know what I know that you might want to know. I don't know _anything_ about velvets except that they look cool in photographs. I've never even seen one in person. I do know a little about Berghias and a little about invert reproduction. (If you can ever talk Ron Shimek into giving his invertebrate reproduction for hobbyists course again--I think it was called Invertebrate Larval Embryology--I'd encourage you to take it. I've taken it twice now and learn more each time.) Ask your questions. If I know anything I'll try to answer.
--Andy, the bucket man. "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Sunday, April 24, 2011 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by SoCalDude I see no live nudes! Lies!  Setup looks cool though. Patience. First there is the tease. Then we all get nudi's, eventualese. Link
Originally Posted by Umm_fish? I don't know what you mean. I'm not trying to hold anything back. I just don't know what I know that you might want to know. I don't know _anything_ about velvets except that they look cool in photographs. I've never even seen one in person. I do know a little about Berghias and a little about invert reproduction. (If you can ever talk Ron Shimek into giving his invertebrate reproduction for hobbyists course again--I think it was called Invertebrate Larval Embryology--I'd encourage you to take it. I've taken it twice now and learn more each time.) Ask your questions. If I know anything I'll try to answer. I appreciate all of your information immensely. Just wanted to make a quick update. I was planning on being clever and removing one pane of the tank glass to gain access to the inside of the jug for gluing the first seam. While cutting away the top and bottom bracing was little trouble, it seems Nick -- assembler of my tank, according to the label -- was much more clever. The sheets of glass are so perfectly bonded at the seam, there is simply no fitting a razor blade between them. All attempts to do so only chip the glass. I had read once that this could be done to replace a broken pane. I can only assume tank assembly standards have markedly improved since the writing of that article. Don't bother trying this. It isn't even a maybe. Instead, I will focus all my effort on building the best possible tools, to glue both seams via nothing more than a 2 inch hole on top. I've already started on a promising design, but silicon glue dries slowly....
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Monday, April 25, 2011 6:48 PM
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Prepare thy self. 
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:37 PM
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These are my servants: Jetsam & Lagan. Jetsam: (applicator)  Lagan: (smoother)  Their motions, effortless and precise. Their master, electromagnetism.  Their résumé includes weaseling their way thru any 2 inch hole. However, an online background check revealed that Jetsam is a power hungry neocon and Lagan was once convicted of lying under oath. But private lives made public are still private, and oath said it was consensual. I refuse to discriminate; together we can build great things.
<message edited by Whys Alives on Thursday, April 28, 2011 2:26 PM>
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:23 PM
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Originally Posted by TheUnfocusedOne Did I miss something?
What are those things? Yep! You have to do more than just look at the pictures.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Friday, April 29, 2011 1:16 AM
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This is Wanda... by day:  This is Wanda... under cover:  I know she ain't pretty to look at, but I'll tell you what... You sit in the same room with her and you say it first. D: She gets the job done!
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Friday, April 29, 2011 2:07 AM
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Here's the job... Lagan will go first, descending into the tank upon a ferrous chain.  Wanda will give the necessary down link...  ...and provide the rendezvous position so Lagan can make his contact without any "unfortunate incidents".  Jetsam can get in and out on his own, and will have a gun.  Once we're in position, Jetsam will unload, Lagan will try to smooth things out, and if it all gets too messy, well... Wanda will clean up. The team will have to hit both sides of the tank and there's no plan 'B' if things go wrong. So we'll do a practice run on the seam I cut out while trying to penetrate the perimeter. With team work, we will succeed.
<message edited by Whys Alives on Friday, April 29, 2011 3:31 AM>
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Sunday, May 1, 2011 3:34 PM
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Originally Posted by TheUnfocusedOne Ahh!
Sneaky sneaky :happy: STATUS REPORT: Practice run complete. Team performed admirably. Included a couple obsticales not expected on the job. Team performed well when faced with the unexpected. Main concern, now relieved, was that Lagan would prove too soft and crumple under pressure. Instead, he showed Jetsam what a little finesse can really do. An excellent pair. As for Wanda, she has several pair. The mission is a go! I said... Go Go Go...!
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