Breeding Journal, Species: Liopropoma mowbrayi

Formalin or Hydrogen Peroxide baths for egg cleaning...?  Tried any of that?

 
So any updates on 1.1?  I'm particularly curious about the design of how you're separating the eggs from the water that's being drawn off...

After working with the system, its been easier to just turn the pumps off and collect the eggs after they spawn.  A little more time consuming, but less moving parts!
 
I actually made a mesh "basket" that sat in the egg collector, to get eggs I'd just pull the basket up and put it in the egg holder.  I've got pics somewhere I'll look for em.
 
Haven't done anything from a chemical standpoint - I've re-read your experiences with the pygmy angels on the old board, seemed like you got better results without any of that stuff.  I think I'll try a drop of Iodide for the next ones.

I got _much_ better hatches and more vigorous sixline prolarvae with hydrogen peroxide baths. I still had trouble getting them to feeding stages. I think they might be sensitive to tiny amounts of ammonia, but that's still theory. I'm still cycling the new tank that I want to use for hatching.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Andy and Matt, what percentages are you using with the peroxide?  I'll give that a shot, can't hurt right?  I'm not worried about first foods, I've got a kazillion parvolacanus pods and I can always collect zooplankton every day.

I found this on the web - do these ratio's look right?
http://www.soest.hawaii.e...ANT/Makai/nov98/2.html   *NOTE LINK IS 404 DEAD*

Summary: They found that fish infected with the parasite Amyloodinium Ocellatum on their gills, were successfuly treated by peroxide. At the start of the study,
the fish averged 37 parasites per gill sample. After being exposed to 75ppm to 100ppm for 24 hours, the parasites were eradicated. 100ppm is equivalent to
only about 2 or 3 drops of 35% peroxide in 8oz of water! The untreated fish still had an average of 28 parasites at the end of the study.
 
I was thinking of adding 3 drops to 8oz of water that the eggs are in for the first 24 hrs, then collect eggs and move them to a non-treated new ASW mix.  Sound about right?

I use 1ml per ltr H2O2 @12% solution. The solution % you can buy vary so always chech that first.

Here is a link that does work:
http://www.fws.gov/midwest/ashland/mtan_36.html#Hydrogen

Sorry. I meant to get back to you earlier but craziness ensued.
 
I used roughly 5mL of the generic peroxide from the drug store around the corner in about 750mL of salt water as a dip for about 30 minutes after harvest. Then I wash then into fresh salt water.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Andy I assume that's the normal 35% stuff?   And thanks Duck!

I tracked down the bottle. It says 3% USP on it.
 
Basically, eggs withstand some pretty harsh environments. After hatch it's a different story, of course. So you want to be harsh off the bat but have it all gone by the time they hatch.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Here is some info on H2O2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide
 
I use 20-40 volume H2O2 in my "day" job all the time. Since it oxidizes fairly quickly I don't see the point of a 24hr bath. 

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

I would normally use it if i'm not sure of hatch date. I place the pot with eggs in a 2 litre container containg the H2O2 for 1 hour, before placing the pot in the BRT with the H2O2 water. As you sy Tal it oxidises fairly quickly and the only residue is oxygen and water.

So here is a more formal outline of what I'm thinking of:
 
Collect eggs
Eggs are in egg holder - h2o2 is added, sits for about 30 minutes.
Eggs are then placed in new asw to "wash" them.
Eggs collected via pipette and placed into hatching tank/tub/bucket etc with new ASW and heater.  Slow 1 or two bubbles a second via airstone.
 
Seems reasonable enough?

Pretty close to what I'm doing. I pipette into a small sieve already in the H2O2 bath. After about 30, I move the sieve to a clean salt bath, then I flush them into the hatching container. Witt tells me that you don't want any air at all.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Now I'm tempted to get stuff set up lol!  Won't do me a whole lot of good if I'm gone at the conference till Monday tho!  
 
Although if the prolarvae stage is as long as some say, it might be just in time to add copepods and iso to the hatch bucket.... 

Yeah, but it's so much fun to watch the process.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

So after getting back into the "groove" (40 hours of driving in 4 days will do that too you!) I collected some eggs last night.  Not a ton (20ish) as I forgot about it while watching Psych (oops!).  So I was all set to pick up some maroxy today (its for eggs after all!) until I got to reading whats in it - "stabilized oxides" aka its hydrogen peroxide!  So a quick run to Target got me two 32oz bottles for about two bucks (compared to the 9 bucks for 2oz of maroxy!)  I had the eggs in a holder with about 8oz of water from the tank.  This first batch is getting 1ml of peroxide for 30 minutes to see if that makes any difference in mortality.  Once they are done I'll give em a quick swirl in fresh saltwater and then plop em in some new saltwater (just shy of a gallon) that has 10 drops of peroxide in it.  I should have hatching in about 30-36 hours to see if it works. 

Made the dumb mistake of putting them in a container with too many ridges - can't see anything!  I'm cleaning the tank today and moving the pair of clowns out to another tank.  This will make for some more room in the tank (going to remove some rock so better flow), as well as let me take the 3-4 gallons of water to start a new culture of the pods that are growing in there (I think its just some tisbe but maybe I can get more cyclopoids like I found before).  
 
Once I get the 37 column tank up (20x18x24) I'll move them into that so I can deep clean the biocube.

IME,and similarly others,prolarvae die after 2 days or so.This seems to happen with most species tried.Which is the reason of some sort of cooperative efforts.
What is the cause and ;Wich is the idea of using peroxide?.Obviously,we suspect bacterial contamination.What you advise as an aproach?A starter dip and then keep an antibacterial agent in the rearing water?

Luis I had mentioned this to one or two folks at the conference, which seemed to go over fairly well.  The dip is done for bacteria once eggs are collected.  I plan on running a dosing pump into the larvae tank that will keep a steady amount of hydrogen peroxide into the tank to help with bacteria.  What levels I am not sure yet - it will be trial and error!  Maybe Todd G. can chime in with some of his secrets to getting them past the 48/72 hour stage!

Female is HUGE tonight.  I'm hoping for a good spawn.  The best I've had is just over 300 (304 if I remember correctly).   Funny thing on the spawns - by re-arranging the tank they skip a night.  I wonder if this could be used to get them to spawn every other night with bigger spawns?  Something I'll have to play around with.
 
Biggest thing is now I'm ready to for a large spawn.  I'll be using hydrogen peroxide on the eggs in a bath for about 30 minutes, washing with new asw, then placing them into a 9 gallon tank with a heater at 81-82 degrees F. Hoping this gets me past the 72 hour mark.  Tank will be bare except for heater and an extremely slow bubble (one per minute) to keep some water movement and prevent the heater from burning anything that gets to near.
 
Pics later.
 
 

good luck!

Got about 150 or so eggs tonight, put them in H202 for about 30 minutes then into the hatching tank.  I'll cover the tank sides tomorrow, and add a little more h202 to the tank to help with bacteria/fungus.  Hopefully some pics of prolarvae in 48 hours!

Good luck!

After doing some research, I think I've found the main issue to egg fecundity - broodstock diet.  While they love eating pellets it just isn't good enough for consistent quality of spawns.  While the can survive on what they are eating its not optimal.  
 
The new plan is the following:
 
Culture mysid shrimp that are fed a very high HUFA diet and then feed the fish.  In effect I'll be going for "gut loading" of the mysid.  I've always had this in the back of my head that the diet is one of the main problems so it is time to address it.  I'll also try to culture some of the grass/glass shrimp that are in the sea grass beds as well.  If I can find some very large copepods, I'll try those also.
 
Note I'll be switching to all live feeds as soon as possible for all broodstock, with dry / frozen as a fall back if I run out.

I've also seen differences in egg production in the wrasses based on number of times the broodstock was fed per day. They like lots of meals. Good luck!

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Simpler answer - PE MYSIS.

I've feed mysis - they'll eat it, but not real excited about it.  They get bright pink when they hunt the live mysid/grass shrimp.  
 
Maybe the stuff I have is bad -I'll get some new stuff for them.
 
Cheers

So the first couple of batches of eggs I tried with peroxide had very low fertility - an example was the other night - 50ish eggs, with three being viable.  Then last night I collected about 150, with nearly 100 viable.  Seems to me that only the clear eggs are fertile, and ones with white dots aren't. That in itself is interesting, as if things are eating your infertile eggs, they hopefully aren't eating your good ones!  Also the being clear might make it harder for predators to see your good eggs and thus helping your success. 
 
So I've gone down to just a couple of drops of peroxide in the egg holder.  My line of thinking is to check the eggs every 24 hours or so, pull the white eggs (and hopefully slowing/stopping fungus for the rest).  I'm also going to set up a new system for eggs (which I'll post later) and prolarvae and grow out.
 
Crossing my fingers, I think I've got a decent shot on these guys now.

Another huge batch tonight - must be nearly 300 eggs, about 150-175 were "clear", which bodes well for fertilization.  The whiter they are, the less likely they are to be fertile.  I've stopped collecting those now to see if thats another weapon to combat fungus.
 
Should have some prolarvae in about 20-24 hours! (From last night)

So iodine didn't do it, hydrogen with iodine didn't do it.... breaking out the 3W UV's.  They'll get here tomorrow from amazon.  The fungus/bacteria thing is just getting old at this point!  Trying some new things for the eggs tonight.  Blargh!

Are you bleaching the container that you're incubating in between batches?

I've been using different containers every time Matt.  Eggs still get the brown globs on them after 12 hours no matter what.  I'm almost thinking that they need to be in kreisel so there is constant soft flow around them. 
 
Working on the new hatching system today.  Its incredibly frustrating to see at least 3000 eggs now just get attacked by bacteria/fungus and nothing seems to stop it.

Biggest spawn ever of these guys.  There was north of 300-350 eggs, and a good 60-70% were fertile!  I've got the eggs sitting in MarOxy at an amount for 5gallons - the eggs are in 8 ounces of water!  They will sit in here for about 15 minutes then I'll pick them out to wash em off in new ASW, then they go into new ASW with about 5ml of H202.
 
If this doesn't work then... well I dunno

So 12 hours later - no fungus or bacteria on the eggs, even the infertile ones!  Phew.  Now I might have dosed too much MarOxy and thus killed the eggs, but at least I've got a reference to where to go from now on.  The most encouraging aspect is that even the infertile eggs showed no signs of bacteria/fungus.  
 
Since they take about 50ish hours to hatch to prolarvae, I've still got another day an half or so to go before I know if they will.  I have sampled some eggs and have seen growth in them, so here's hoping they will continue.  
 
Phew.  I was at wits end with the damn fungus/bacteria.  One hurdle down, 9,999 more to go
 
 
 
(Edited for Spelling)

That's really promising so far.  Went looking for active ingredients / etc on Maroxy just to see what it came up with.  Got this:
 
"Mardel MarOxyslowly releases small amounts of a stabilized oxygen-chlorine combination which, when used as directed, has an unusual ability to treat a wide variety of tropical fish diseases, especially fungal infections and certain common bacterial infections. MarOxy does not color the water and will not interfere with the biological filter."
 
Sadly, I can't find the active ingredients anywhere.  Are there any listed in the bottle?

I can't find anything either, but maybe these will help
 
http://www2.dupont.com/Chlorine_Dioxide/en_US/products/chemicals/stabilized.html
 
http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/drugInfo.cfm?id=18357
 
http://www.frontierpharm.com/dioxicare-system.php
 
http://www.puretechonline.com/FAQ.htm
 
you can always send them a message http://www.virbacpets.com/ContactUs.aspx
 
this is close
http://www.vitaloxide.com/docs/msds.pdf
 
http://www.puremash.com/stabilized_CIO2.html
 
http://www.lenntech.com/library/clo2/chlorine-dioxide.htm
 
overview of it
http://www.grandcircuitinc.com/Howard%20Alliger%20-%20An%20Overall%20View%20Cl02.pdf
 
 

RLTW

180 Gallon Mixed Reef

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8

Yeah the only thing I've ever found was "Chlorine oxide" - which is the same stuff they use for swimming pools, just a much lower dosage.  I could just get some big pool tablets but no idea as to how much that is actually when broken up.  
 
3W UV sterilizer came in today from Amazon - put one on the tank with with eggs, just stuck sponges over the outlet so it diffuses the water.  You can't even see a ripple from the outlet.  Pics of eggs before and after in a bit, got to transfer from microscope.
 
Thanks all!

I also came across a lot of links to mouth wash lol. I guess that may work too.

RLTW

180 Gallon Mixed Reef

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8