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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Sunday, May 8, 2011 4:40 PM
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 Originally Posted by Umm_fish?
Maybe it's just getting them to this point. Are they eating anything?
A nice dream,Andy  And it´d make sense,these larvae are about the same as any of the smaller benthic newly hatched larvae. And yet it is only a nice dream.Unfortunately chances of success are close to nil. As I said before,of all the raisings possible to do,this is arguably the MOST difficult.Not impossible but veeery close...
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Sunday, May 8, 2011 5:29 PM
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I don't know. Cleaner wrasses have eggs that are supposed to be a third smaller than these guys. If you _really_ want a challenge.... 
--Andy, the bucket man. "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Monday, May 9, 2011 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Umm_fish? I don't know. Cleaner wrasses have eggs that are supposed to be a third smaller than these guys. If you _really_ want a challenge.... But they weren´t raised,right?.I mean that considering the marine ornamentals possible to raise in captivity (those that at least once were raised),arguably pigmy angels are the most difficult.
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Wednesday, June 1, 2011 2:05 PM
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Things remain bad.I don´t give up easily,but I´m running short of ideas. They look nice at day 1,and start dying on day 2 and the rest on day 3.Very few survive,and reach day 6,where larvae are ready to go hunting. So,I can´t say I failed raising the larvae,I didn´t even get some larvae to start the game.This is a pre-failure. But I keep trying different things and will report if I find something.
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Thursday, June 2, 2011 12:39 AM
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Well, you at least know that they've been done. My suggestion would be to increase the water volume. Have you seen the video Karen made of rearing the Genicanthus? Those are some mighty large ponds she was working in. I'm sorry. I need to get back to the wrasses and beat my head against the same wall. Maybe bouncing ideas off each other we can knock a few bricks loose. Or get concussions.
--Andy, the bucket man. "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Thursday, June 2, 2011 1:01 PM
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Right Andy,this is something I am considering,among many others.Though we landlocked hobbyists can´t afford the luxury of huge volumes of NSW... Yes,keep working with sixlines,may be they aren´t that difficult.May be nobody tried it before?.
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Sunday, June 26, 2011 2:06 PM
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I have a 20 gal. "pond" cycling now. My idea is to float downwellers in there giving a lot more volume and quick conversion of ammonia. I'll probably try it first without water movement inside the downwellers other than what flow is going on in the pond, but it would be easy enough to add drip lines later.
--Andy, the bucket man. "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:40 AM
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Time to report some (very faint)progress and update. Prolarvae keep dying in 3rd-4th days,no matter what.This and the quick "reabsorbtion" of the dead ones,lead me to believe bacteriae are the culprit. Experimenting with different SG showed that prolarvae develop just the same at 1.015,1.020 or 1.025. Culturing them in NSW vs ASW showed no difference. I am currently hatching the eggs in a tray with H2O2 treated water,and next afternoon,move the prolarvae to small dishes and subject them to different treatments;antibiotics,H2O2,with an untreated control.Results seem to show that H2O2 helps,though for a short time,as they keep dying. So my new move is to keep the dishes under slow but continuous water exchange.With 1.020 new ASW and the same plus H2O2. Cultures for Vibrio show lots of them in the control and only 5 CFU in the H2O2. Now in the 5th day,unexpectedly I have several live larvae in the control,some free swimming,while only one in the treated dish. So I put a light over the dishes and begin to supply copepod naups, less than 100 mics.
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Sunday, October 16, 2011 1:45 PM
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Very interesting Luis! I'm following along and cheering for you! 
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Tuesday, October 18, 2011 1:28 PM
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Thank you so much Mindy,for following this thread! I imagined everybody was following and holding their breath waiting for the next chapter of this endless drama... But no,the audience seems to have moved to more positive topics! .Time to end it and move away... Anyway,the last chapter is as bitter as the rest:two swimming larvae were found early in their 6th day,one in the control,sliding on the bottom;and one in the H2O2 treatment,swimming actively at the surface and with good reflexes. By the evening of the 6th day they both were gone. 
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Tuesday, October 18, 2011 2:10 PM
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Well, I'm still watching at least. I'm just in work purgatory right now. Must typeset more books....
--Andy, the bucket man. "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Tuesday, October 18, 2011 4:36 PM
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Originally Posted by luis a m Thank you so much Mindy,for following this thread! I imagined everybody was following and holding their breath waiting for the next chapter of this endless drama... But no,the audience seems to have moved to more positive topics! .Time to end it and move away... I survived the "little indians saga" (L. amboinensis) several times. This is one is a piece of cake and just as interesting and, I'm sure will be sucessfull at some point. Keep going Luis !
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Wednesday, October 26, 2011 11:16 AM
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Hi Luis! I was just reading MattP's C argi journal from 2007 and he made it to day 5 as well. Matt suggested day 5 was the starvation time. Are yours feeding at all? It doesn't sound like you are offering food yet...maybe Matt was mistaken about the 5 day starvation. What is your next plan of attack? A downweller seems like a good method maybe...? Of the small handful of people successful with Dwarf Angels, are any of them sharing culture information? I can't seem to find any... Did I miss it somewhere or have you not specified which specie you are working with?
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Wednesday, October 26, 2011 11:23 AM
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You have came pretty far if you got them to day 6! Impressive! Curious, how did you get a pair?
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Wednesday, October 26, 2011 1:30 PM
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No,starvation time is 9 days for Peter B,and a couple of days more for Stanley B,I think I recall.The prolarval period ends at about 5 days,and feeding begins only then. This is a prolarval death issue,which is not referred by any of the pelagic raising reports.Yet it also happened to two other breeders in MBI,so the problem does exist at the hobby level.We can not even start the raising game. The few times I had some larvae,I did provide food,see above. They must be mostly C.loriculus,but upstream in the system I have a spawning pair of flavissimus,so some can be mixed in there. Pairing them is merely keeping two different sized ones separated with an eggcrate fence for some time.
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Wednesday, October 26, 2011 1:33 PM
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Luis, how are you keeping the eggs floating? I.e. do you have pictures or diagrams that show how they kept until hatched? This is/was the biggest issue I've come across with pelagic eggs - they need to be kept off the sides/bottom so they can hatch. Perhaps there is something in that first step which limits them later on?
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Wednesday, October 26, 2011 1:45 PM
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Yes,I first collected the eggs straining the outflow in a 400 mic sieve and then flushed them into a dish.None of the eggs floated after that,and none hatched. Now I collect them in a net and gently wash them into a tray which is left undisturbed.Many eggs there float and hatch.
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Wednesday, October 26, 2011 9:23 PM
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Originally Posted by luis a m
No,starvation time is 9 days for Peter B,and a couple of days more for Stanley B,I think I recall.The prolarval period ends at about 5 days,and feeding begins only then.
This is a prolarval death issue,which is not referred by any of the pelagic raising reports.Yet it also happened to two other breeders in MBI,so the problem does exist at the hobby level.We can not even start the raising game.
The few times I had some larvae,I did provide food,see above. Ack, sorry I missed your info about feeding the larvae. I will go back and read it again. Hmmm...I guess "we" have some experimenting to do, I hope it is possible at hobby level.
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Thursday, October 27, 2011 7:51 AM
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Arc--If they are in still water the eggs should float well on their own, not quite on the surface but in the higher water column. If they don't, you should up the quality of mama's diet. I have my 20 gal. tank cycled and waiting for me to build downwellers, racks, and water circulation devices (drip tubes). Now, I'm just waiting for a break in work (two more new books came in yesterday) and probably the time change to get back to the wrasses. Enough of the day 4-5 deaths!
--Andy, the bucket man. "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Thursday, October 27, 2011 9:35 AM
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Luis - thanks for the info! Andy - It's odd, I feed all fish the same thing (rods original formula everyday / breeders every couple of days/ live mysid / frozen mysis / TDO / other pellets from 3-4 other companies everyday / frozen pacific plankton (Rods) I only collect the clear eggs - the white ones aren't fertilized. I get about 1/2 of the fertilized eggs to float for a bit, then they all sink over 2-3 days. When I've used re-circulators to keep water moving (no airstones) they all stay suspended. The trick is timing the re-circs to stop when they hatch so the pro-larvae aren't getting smashed around. That and zero space is holding me back at the moment..... as well as having plenty of demersal spawners taking up BRT's.
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