Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.

I have used that method before when breeding neon tetras, we added a throat lozenger that had a probiotic something in.  Works well.  Its something I will be trying with the mandarin.  I sometimes wonder if our systems are too clean, and while bad bacteria is a problem in our effort to get rid of it we actually end doing more harm then good by killing the good stuff as well.  I think this is why it should be one or the other - sterile clean or very well matured.  Of course thats just me thinking!

Proud member of the first dedicated breeders site in the UK
Marine Fish Breeders Club - UK
H.Zosterae - 60 DPS

Papers don't always give you a full grasp of ones failure(s), nor do they put everything to print at times.  Do not let their failure get you down. 

That is the point ,Gresh.Failures are seldom published,and when they are,they are garnished with some convenient make-up.
 

Which probiotics, and where do you buy them? Healthfood store? Do you know the name of the bacteria?

It would be helpful to know what didn't work.  Then we could try it ourselves and confirm that it didn't work.  Unfortunately, what worked or didn't work in one person's system will have the opposite effect in another person's system. 
 
The queen of clownfish, and the resource and inspiration for many of us, Joyce Wilkerson, published that one should not use too much light on the clownfish larval tanks, and one needs to blacken the sides the larval tanks, techniques that I now completely disregard with great success.  

There are two major factors that are common in all pro breeding projects (academic,public aquaria,commercial hatcheries) that can not be adopted by hobbyists:
Very large larval tanks
NSW
The importance of which still remains unclear for me.

I understand that Todd will be releasing some culture information for eggs, prolarvae, and larvae soon now that he has reached settlement, so hopefully he can clear some of this up for us.

Wouldn't it be nice if he made reports here? Oh wait, we are on the wrong thread.  Todd raised basslets...

 
Forgive a noob, for stepping in here!  Luis, I am thinking if it is possible that NSW has some microbial/bacterial benefits that ASW does not?  That combined with the large larvae tanks may be detrimental to the growth of harmful bacteria?  I also wonder what temp they are keeping these tanks at as I know certain temps have different effects on bacterial growth.  Just my 2 cents.

Arc is spawninng basslets.Andy wrasses.But solving the prolarval mortality issue will be good for all of us,i think we are facing the same problem.

Yes,I thought about that,or even some unknown chemical factor.And I said above,I ran some tests with NSW,but no changes were found.

 
Prolarvae do as prolarvae are...?  Should be pretty close anyway.

From the website, it looks like Todd was facing some of the same problems we've faced. Hopefully he'll release some of his solutions.
 
http://www.reefs.com/blog/2011/11/10/another-milestone-in-aquaculture-first-rearing-of-the-reef-basslets-at-the-long-island-aquarium/

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

 
It's interesting that you bring this up; we at the LFS were just having a conversation about this and the owner of the shop is convinced that some sort of chemical or hormone comes into play.

Culturing in UV treated water now.
On day 3,I removed about 100 dead PL.But other 100 are hanging in midwater and looking fine.Culture water remains Vibrio free.

How big is the rearing tub Luis ? How many liters ?

Anderson.

Not rearing tubs so far,Anderson
Eggs are hatched in trays and PL are moved to culture dishes,the size of a Petri dish,but taller.

Huumm, so you are adding ~200 eggs to which amount of water ? And what density of PL you have after you move them ?

Anderson.

That sure is a small amount of water Luis.  I'm thinking (in raw newbie terms btw) is to put the eggs in something like a rotifer sieve from FAF, the one in a 4" pipe?  Then clip that to the side of a 10 or 20 gallon tank with a heater and a MiniJet pump...?  Then don't transfer them, they can stay as PL in the rotifer sieve...albeit I think you would want a smaller sieve so the copepods can't escape.

Anderson,the dishes hold 150 ml,which gives an initial density of more than 1PL/ml.
Mindy,the amount of water is irrelevant because it is being exchanged at the rate of 1 drop/sec.,or a complete turnover every 50 min.This kind of container works well for experimental work,as they can be checked with a microscope.
And they are in a rot sieve which sits in the dish!53 mic mesh can hold most naups,something smaller will clog fast.
The purpose of this project is to solve the problem of prolarval mortality.Raising angels is far,very far.
Today in their 4th day,there were less deaths,about 20%.PL are well developed,with refringent eyes,many resting on the bottom,but others swim in midwater.Development seems faster,may be the temp is a bit higher.
Vibrio showed but at very low numbers:3 CFU.

Got it Luis !
They would start feeding at day 3 isn't it ? And dya 5 or 6 would be considered starvation time ? I know it can change a bit with temperature but jJust to know if I have my facts correct or close.

Anderson.

 
Oh, this is not what I was picturing from your description.  I must have missed something...had no idea you were exchanging water by drip.  I wish I could help.

This is sort of a mini open,or better,flow thru system.Better than a down weller,where some waste water still can return across the screen.Here bacteriae are flushed away with UV treated water before they can multiply
The drawback is that larvae are in close contact with the screen or the solid walls,which is much less of a problem in aquaculture huge larval tanks.And not an issue in open sea! 

 

Luis, where can one get a test (kit?) for vibrio?

Kathy,it is not a test kit.You need to obtain a bacteriological medium called "TCBS"
Get the 100 grm vial.Larger sizes are expensive.I could start a thread about this.

Great news!At day 5 I have lots of fully developed larvae,2.6 mm long and ready for raising:
 

 

 
This is my 2nd thread about raising Centropyge.The 1st one was about hatching the eggs.In both of them,I was hopelessly stuck,and thanks to the help given by the people posting,the problems could be solved.Thanks so much to all of you.This is the beauty  of a Site like this.
The clear improvement obtained with the use of UV,confirms my initial suspect that the cause of prolarval mortality had to be bacterial.
Now the "final season" of this saga is in front of us:raising the larvae! 

Excellent! Congrats!

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Very cool. Congrats! Can you show us a photo of your setup? I'm interested in the design of the vessel you have the kids in.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

 
Please do start a thread. I am sure others would be interested as well.

Luis, many congratulations on your achievement! 

This UV idea is very interesting. Pelagic eggs must be exposed to UV from the sun.  Is it known what the bacterial counts are in seawater at the surface compared to seawater on the reef?  Is this another reason why being up near the surface is beneficial to many reef larvae?  Some experiments outdoors with these pro larvae would be interesting.  Exposure to UV may be one reason my backyard tubs of critters did so well this past summer.
 
Many questions, little time….

Oh congratulations Luis!  I told you you would do it!  

Congratulations! awesome pictures too!
 
For what it's worth I have 4 larvae with eyes, maybe a couple more. Wednesday night saw the Melanurus wrasses getting ready to spawn, so turned off the korallias and put a DIY mesh bag in the sump instead of a filter sock. I know, crude. Next day turned the sock inside out into a wine glass and saw eggs. Took the 14 that looked completely likely and chucked the rest, usually I try hatching anything that is not cloudy, this time only took the totally clear (except for the embryo) bouyant ones. Last night saw 2 prolarvae, and today not expecting anything was astounded to see 4 living larvae with black eyes. Also saw one that was dead. Since they are very hard to see I don't know if 4 was the total. They are mostly hanging diagonally head down and the yolk appears gone, and if anything bumps them they swim like mad, but I have not seen them eat. Having the yolk gone and eyes pigmented this quickly seems rather fast.
 
I don't expect anything but it sure is fun. Can't say they are wrasse larvae for sure... I have a very young and small pair of flame angels in the tank, and the larvae look an awful lot like your pics. Rather blunt in front and think I saw a tiny spike on the head like in your 2nd pic. Maybe I am seeing things, they probably all look the same at this age. But thought I would mention it. Not that I would care one way or the other, hatching anything is pretty fun.
 
Anyway keep up the good work! Bet you are going to have better luck than I, am not at all prepared to feed larvae at this time. Will scrounge what I can from the pod cultures.
Kate

Good luck, Kate! If they are hanging head-down then they likely still have yolk. What always looks like an eye to me really isn't an eye. It's the way the oil droplet that keeps them buoyant looks. Like this:
 

 
That big, round spot that I always thought was an eyespot is really the oil droplet.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

 
Here you are.Nothing fancy...Tiny black dots are larvae.
 

 
and these are 6 dah larvae inside the dish,as seen with a dissection scope,on a 53 mic mesh:
 

 

 
Will you try something like this with your wrasses?
 
Obviously,this is not a larval rearing set up.Just an experimental aproach to have a close look at early prolarval development and play with different methods until mortality could be stopped.  

Thanks you guys for the congrats!Hatching the eggs and having the prolarvae developed into larvae were only preliminary  (though necessary) steps.Now the real challenge starts!
 
I think off shore surface waters have very low bacterial counts,dunno if because of the sun or because of the lack of organic pollutants in the vastness of the sea.
Anyway,I am sure there are less bacteriae there that in shore waters and many times less than in our tanks.It is conceivable that fish larvae lack inmune deffense mechanisms against them. 

Thanks Kate!See how the Sites help?.Success of one of us encourages all the others!
My pics are not nice.The slide glass is full of scratches.The spike you saw in the 2nd larva is only a scratch.
Try to be as gentle as possible when collecting eggs,perhaps with a large collecting screen.Strong flow kills the eggs,as was found in my 1st thread.
Yes,my prolarvae hang head down at 45º,they remind me of Xenopus larvae.Perhaps other prolarvae are the same.
I think you can tell if your prolarvae are angels or wrasses by inspecting the location of the oil vacuole.It is in the front of the yolk sac in wrasses (see Andy´s pics) and at the rear end of it in angels.
You should now focus in obtaining large numbers of competent larvae.Then there will be time to try and raise them.One step at a time!
 
 

Thank you. Why do I forget about cool ideas like sliding a sieve into another container and letting that container overflow? Doh. I think I probably will steal that idea.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Jeez Andy, even I had that idea!  :p  Well, kind of... 
 
Thanks for posting pics Luis!  Now, to get a hundred prolarvae to larvae and you should be set to get them to settlement!