Peppermint Shrimp Spawn (L.boggessi)

No more than two hours after lights out my Peppermint Shrimp released the clutch and now I have several hundred larvae in the nursery!  Upon observing them for the last two hours I have come to believe that the kreisel system is not the best method for rearing Lysmata and attempts to keep them suspended in the water column are unnatural and probably account for the low success rates in breeding this species.  Let me explain my observations, the larvae are all attaching themselves to the sides of the nursery and arranging themselves in the same position, head down, abdomens gently beating in the water column.  The nursery has been established for about two months and has plenty of diatoms and a nice brown film algae along the sides of the tank.  Upon first glance I thought that perhaps they were getting caught in the film algae until I noticed that they are actually reaching out and taking a hold of the sides.  I'm ruling out the possiblity that they are accidentally getting stuck because they have all taken on the same position (heads down abdomens gently beating in the water column), if they were getting stuck they would be every direction including being stuck on their backs and they are not.  Then every once in a while they will release themselves move along in the current and then reattach themselves.  They appear to be feeding off the film algae in the nursery.
The set-up that I am using is a slightly modified version of the same breeding system that I discuss in my book "Breeding Berghia Nudibranches the best kept secret".

Cool observations. I haven't worked with them personally but several others have. You can see journal in the "Invert Breeding Journals" forum.
 
I'm looking forward to the book. Haven't gotten a copy yet.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

I had a quick look at the journal.....the larvae collection method seems like an awful lot of work (IMHO) and would add the risk of damaging the larvae.  (I'm not knocking anyone so please don't misinterpret what I'm saying and their work is certainly appreciated.....I'm just working "outside of the box")  Why collect the larvae if you don't have to?  When my PS was ready to release I just moved it over to the nursery a few days prior and once the clutch was released moved "her" back again to the tank that has the mates.  Took all of 2 minutes.  Larvae aren't damaged by any type of collection method so they are happy, "mama" is happy....I'm happy.
 
Plus, I have the advantage of running a full sump, filtration system (power filters, skimmer, UV) and water top-off on both the breeding tank and the nursery tanks and the larvae are completely separated from the filtration system!

I've never done it but moving the adult (pre-release) seems to make more sense to me too. Thinking out of the box is great!
 
BTW, my parents have a place in Elliot Lake area.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Elliot Lake....neat!  I've never been there but would love to go sometime!  Moving pre-release seemed to make the most sense to me as well....more natural for all party's involved.
Here's another interesting observation, if I turn the lights out and wait an hour or so the larvae all release from the sides of the nursery and float around in the water column.  If I turn the lights on again and wait for about a half hour they all start to reattach themselves to the sides of the nursery.

Babies (whether vertebrate or not) do seem to like facing into the current, watching for food to come to them. Why do you think that peps wouldn't be able to do that in a kreisel?

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

It's not that I don't think that they would do that in a kreisel, what I am observing with the larvae in my nursery seems to strongly suggest that the kreisel method and trying to keep them suspended in the water column is very unnatural and works against their natural behaviour.  Therefore, I would say that the kreisel method would be adding more stress to the larvae than not.

Well, the reason I asked is that a kreisel affords them surface area to attach to and current to face into all the way around the circle. Does that make sense? I think a kreisel is probably a bit of overkill for these but I can't see why it would harm them.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

It doesn't make much sense to me...the kreisel doesn't add any more surface area than a nursery.  And my observations are that they are not facing into the current but are all facing head down that's why it doesn't seem to make any sense to me.
Just based on what I am observing the kreisel method puts the larvae in an environmental state that seems to be totally unnatural to what I am seeing with the larvae.  IMHO it doesn't seem to be a recipe to success from the start.

You have more surface area in a kreisel because there is no place inside (if you use a kreisel where there is no water surface) where there's not a surface for them to grab hold, if they want to. There's no open top, so every side is a surface area. I don't know what your definition of "nursery" is so I can't comment on whether that would have more surface area than a completely enclosed tube for the same volume of water, but I doubt it.
 
To be honest, from what I have seen and read not a lot of serious aquaculture people use kreisels with shrimp larvae. The people who are culturing the hard shrimp (L. amboinensis and L. debelius, for example) use tanks with rounded cone shapes.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

I understand what you are saying about the closed tube; however, a general rule of thumb in aquaculture is to copy or mimmick as best as you can the natural environment or provide an environment where the organism being bred is allowed to behave as naturally as possible....then adopt the necessary requirements to make it economically feasible for commercial ventures.  The cone method has more to do with ease of cleaning (ie it eliminates someone going tank to tank to siphon out the bottom).

Now the larvae are beginning to take "prey", this time around I have decided not to go down the normal route of NHBBS, instead I have been starting to feed them fresh water cyclops in the 200-400 micron range. Based on my experience with raising seahorses I have come to learn a couple of things:
1) artemia cysts are notorious for carrying pathogens (especially vibrio sp)
2) I have only found hydroids in association with this food source.

and thirdly, one way to cut down on pathogens or disease is to introduce a food source from a different environment altogether. When we were raising seahorses we used a fresh water mysis (PE Mysis) in order to help reduce/eliminate disease.

 
So, you are aiming at 40,000 gal., sunlit tanks in the greenhouse and introducing huge plankton blooms to get prey density high enough? Nothing about this process remotely resembles "natural" unfortunately. What we are doing is trying to find technological solutions that are good enough to get us--and the larvae--by, IMO, but they fall far short of natural.
 
The cone design is not primarily to do with cleaning. It's an attempt to minimize larval damage from contact with hard surfaces and maximize the benefits of kreisel water movement (all the way around the central water return) while making cleaning easier. But it is my understanding that the first two issues were most important.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Andy, I see you are on the MBI Council, may I ask what area of expertise you are bringing to the table as far as breeding marine organisms?

With regard to shrimp breeding? Not much. I've not raised shrimp. I have talked to one of the people who has raised the harder shrimp with regard to his reasoning behind the culture vessel choice (because I became interested in those type of vessels and am still looking for alternatives to learning how to fiberglass my own), I have talked to another of those who've been successful raising the harder shrimp about more general aspects, I believe I have read all of the books on the subject of rearing ornamental marine shrimp and many of the papers, and I have taken invertebrate embryology classes. But I have never raised shrimp. They aren't really my main interest, though they are always on my list. On the other hand, I have raised animals in kreisels and watched their behavior and I do a lot of thinking about the fluid dynamics of culture vessels. That's why your description of how your animals are acting sounds familiar to me. And that's why I questioned your conclusion with regard to the amount of available surface area inside your rearing vessel. You still haven't described this rearing vessel, so I still can't evaluate the specifics for myself but I still doubt it can offer more surface area. But the truth is that _more_ surface area isn't necessarily _better_ surface area (talking about "more" is really just a side issue from the original conversation), but again I have no information on what you are doing so I have no information with which to evaluate whether yours is better, either.
 
Honestly, the "better" question is the more interesting one and where the discussion really ought to focus. The "more" question is just math and isn't all that interesting, IMO. If we could move back to my original question: Why do you think that peps wouldn't attach and make use of the surface area available to them in a kreisel (if attaching and making use of surface area is what peps want to do)? In other words, why are they more likely to engage in this behavior in whatever vessel you are using and less likely to do so in a kreisel? That's what I was originally driving at.
 
Hopefully that gets us back on track. I want to apologize if I've offended you by asking these questions, which is what I think I've done by the tone of your last post. I'm not doing it because I'm trying to attack you. I'm doing it because I'm interested in your answer and I'm hoping that the conversation (a) results in me learning something, (b) hopefully results in other people learning something, and (c) in the end results in one step closer to a whole lot more captive bred animals in the world. Lively debate and the general increase in knowledge that ensues from it is the whole point of the forum structure. That's why I ask you questions.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

But interestingly a new article shows successful raising of the difficult phyllosoma larvae of spiny lobster in a jellyfish kreisel.

Dene,you have posted an identical thread in http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=201&t=9474&p=83303#p83303
where I had given my insights about these shrimpy matters.So excuse me for not repeating them here,it´s like playing simultaneous chess games,I get dizzy!

Forgiven Luis!  Yes I have an identical thread there.....so forgive me for any dizziness!!
 
Quick update: this is now day 3...last night the larvae were swimming in erratic circles which leads me to believe that they went through some type of molting process because today they are all swimming normally again......but I am still at bench mark zoea 2.  Tomorrow they should go through another major molt (zoea3) and develop tensile "fins".   I have also noticed them still eating "meaty" food heartily and also grazing on the film algae on the sides of the nursery.  I watched one very closely and it actually left a little "plow" mark in the algae about a 1/4 of an inch long as it gobbled away.
Since my "female" is holding a clutch again I think that I am going to concentrate on "her" diet and focus on foods with a very high DHA (Docosahexaenoic acid is an omega-3 fatty acid) rather than EPA.  DHA is important in the development of the central nervous system.  Drawing on my experience breeding seahorses I learned that most marine organisms have the ability to convert DHA into the necessary EPA (Eicosapentaenoic acid) that they need but they cannot convert EPA into the necessary DHA that they need in development as a result you will see premature deaths in larvae or fry that are suffering from a DHA deficiency.  So let's start right at the source and "pump mama" up with a high DHA diet while she is carrying the eggs.
 

thanks.
So this afternoon stopped by the fresh fish counter at the local grocery store and picked up some ingredients for "mama's" diet:
 
1- small fresh squid $1.39
2- oysters on sale for 0.99 ea $1.98
1- large scallop $3.00
1- small piece of marlin steak $1.64 (I talked nice to the girl on the counter and told her what I was doing...she giggled and cut me a corner off the steak, I think I would have preferred some fresh mackerel but they were fresh out...anyway the marlin is a more coarse meat and that is what I was looking for.
1- bag of dried red seaweed $3.99
 
(and of course a box of medium sized ziplock top freezer bags and a handful of hot peperroni sticks to eat on the way home )
 
Once home, out came the blender and in went the squid, scallop, oysters, marlin and a small chunk of red seaweed (just enough to turn the whole batch a purple/grey colour once blended).  Hit the blender button and let it blend away until it looked and smelt like a stinky thick milkshake.  From there it was a matter of spooning it into the freezer bag, squeezing the air out and letting it lie flat in the freezer until fully frozen.  Then I can break off a chunk or shave off slices for the Peppermints (mamas and pappas) and figure I have enough for about 3 months maybe.  (The larvae I am going to keep on shaved FW cyclops...store bought BTW)
 
I was so pleased with my gourmet, I put a bit on the end of my finger and introduced it to the broodstock....man, they almost lept out of the tank at it,....fought over it and then each went its way with a nice little glob of seafood goo!  Nothing better than when you've spent all day in the kitchen and the guests love the meal!  Didn't hear a burp tho.
 
So today I measured the flow through on the nursery....3 gallons an hour... this gives me approximately a tank turnover of filtered water from the sump every two hours.  (In other words it's a constant 100% water change in the nursery every two hours and its easier than maintaining a reef tank....that's for sure..life is good!)
 
Also did a 5-gallon water change on the system....that took less time than a cup of tea.
 
So all in all the system is working perfectly for Peppermints and their larvae,...next week I'm going to introduce a few snails into the nursery to help eat left over food....haven't decided which yet but I'm certain that I can co-breed snails along with the Peppermints (well we'll see) if not I'll set up another breeding chamber and toss them in that (the system is totally modular and I can pretty well add or subtract breeding chambers and broodstock tank set-ups in a few minutes). 

Okay so it's now day 4, although I don't have the ability to accurately measure the length of the larvae at the moment, they look to be about 2-3 mm long now.  No other major changes at the moment...their just doing what larvae do...eat and swim, but I have noticed that they aren't attaching themselves to the sides of the nursery as often as what they did the first day.  I guess that would be because they can handle the meaty foods now and aren't interested in the film algae as much any more.  Gearing up for the next major molt which will bring me to zoea 3, things seem to be moving along well because I can see that their tails are less heart shaped now and broadening out with slight notches.  So things are still looking pretty good at the moment.
Now, the way that the broodstock have been gobbling down the "new" food and the amounts of it that I can see in their digestive tract leads me to believe that I must have been starving these before hand and they certainly weren't getting enough (I had them on the FW cyclops as well up until yesterday's creation of the new food).  Okay, I'm guilty...and I'm certain that this first group of larvae were probably not of the highest quality.  Not only because of a "poor" diet in mama but this was her first batch as well.  The broodstock were all very small and couldn't have been more than a few months old from post larvae.
Now, let's take a look at the losses so far....after the first night I lost most of the larvae but that has more to do with me experimenting with this system and I most certainly had the re-circulation PF (power-filter) far too high (there is no chance for the larvae to be sucked into this PF because this PF draws water in from an outer chamber).  The second day the PF was still too high and finally had to be turned off all together with just the input water turned on at a rate of 3 gals/hour to give the breeding chamber a constant water change.  As the larvae get larger I'll experiment with turning the PF back on...what I might have to do is add a very small recirculation pump to the water jacket between the inner and outer chambers...we'll see maybe next batch, I don't want to introduce too many variables at this point (this is were I think we as hobbyists make alot of our breeding mistakes..we panic make a million changes and then lose track of what has been done and loose sight of all the causes/effects.  The inner chamber of the breeding unit holds all the larvae and none can pass through to any of the filtration equipment or return water, here I am not using any type of a screen but rather a natural barrier.  So, right now it looks as though I have somewhere around 10-15 larvae left give or take a few (for now I am okay with that number since the goal of the first batch was to prove out the slight system modifications necessary when adopting my system from nudibranches to crustaceans....this passed with flying colours, so a little pat on the back for me, and the first major goal is a complete success).  This frees me up to concentrate and spend my efforts on dietary needs.  Really looking forward to the next batch because of the major diet change for mama and it'll be round two for her.  On batch two we won't make any other changes to the diet, the broodstaock on the new food and the larvae on shaved frozen FW cyclops....but that for batch two.
Alright then...patiently waiting for the next major molt to occur and then we'll be at zoea 3.

Well speaking about the success of the breeding system, we have had intermitten power outages all day, this last one was about 1 1/2 hours...during such events the breeding chambers all become independent and hold water with no adverse effects on the larvae or broodstock (however, this is dependent on ambient temperature).
 
A few random thoughts...if I have to add a small pump in the water jacket between the inner/outer chambers of the breeding chamber.....what I might do is add a small 9-watt submersible UV  I'll hold that thought.  Also, the inner chamber design could also be incorporated right into the design of a sump or if there is already room in an existing sump an inner chamber could easily be added (whereby the sump itself would become the outer chamber of the breeding chamber).  This would make a breeding set-up possible for any and every hobbyist around the globe to incorporate into their reef or salt water set-ups.  How is that for a home aquaculture explosion....maybe even a movement of truly conscientious 
aquarists!   By doing incorporating an inner chamber to every sump....well, it would take no time and very little effort to toss in a few snails or what have you...makes a lot of sense to me.

Today is day 5 and there are no larvae left from this batch.  I'm pretty certain that this was a weak or poor quality hatch...just based on the observations of how the broodstock are devouring this new food and the quantities that they are able to consume compared to their previous diet of FW cyclops.  I am expecting that this synopsis will be enforced as I continue to work with this species.
 
So mama's expected due date for batch two is June 16th which is only 11 days away....stay tuned to this thread.

So now we are getting close to mama shrimp's expected due date of June 14th, in preparation I moved her from the broodstock tank to the nursery.  The eggs look quite engorged but are still an olive green colour, over the next few days they'll start changing colour and the day of "delivery" (or a day before) the eyes spots of the larvae will begin to show.  Mama is quite comfortable in the nursery and on occasion cleans the eggs with her rear legs.
 
This time I've added four very small Nassarius snails to the nursery to help with any uneated food.  For this batch I'm going to stay with feeding the larvae shaved FW cyclops.  In a batch or two I may moved over to NHBBS but for now I want to see if there is another food source that is easier (or more convenient) for home hobbyists to use.

Today was the expected due date for the larvae.  No larvae after 14 days, but mama's eggs are starting to look a green/grey colour so my guess is we are still about 2-3 days off, which will bring this batch of eggs to 16-17 days.
 
Now while I was feeding them tonight, the other one is carrying eggs too!  This is a small clutch, compared to the other one.  Not sure when this happened, perhaps at the same time...not really sure, I'll have to keep close attention to the egg colour on the second one and move it to the nursery just before the hatch.  With any luck I should have two spawns within a few days of each other.
 
......stay tuned!

It's day 20 and both are still holding the eggs.....

This is day 21...on one of the PS the eggs are completely silver and full of eye spots...so I am expecting one batch of larvae after lights out tonight...the other PS is still holding but the eggs are starting to look green/grey so the second batch should follow in a few more days...

Quick update....still no larvae! Both PS are STILL holding and the eggs on both are now a distinct silver and plenty of eye spots are visible to the naked eye...perhaps I'll have a nursery full of larvae tonight.

Now a note about the snails that I've added to the nursery, I added them too soon! On several occassions I've caught the adult PS killing them for a little escargot even though they are very well fed....so not a good idea to add the snails until after the larvae have arrived and the adults have been moved back to the broodstock tank. With this new diet that the adults are on I've observed significant growth and of course this prolonged period of carrying the eggs. We are now at day 22, I was of the understanding that it only takes 10-14 days for the larvae to hatch as was my experience with the first batch. Now, I'm starting to think that this prolonged period is far better and should produce higher quality larvae (time will tell) and that the previous 14 day cycle  may well be a premature cycle  as a result of poor nutrition (this is only an idea based on what I'm currently observing).

Now as far as the system goes, I am running a set of NO flourescents across the broodstock and the nursery; however, because the nursery has very little flow through I am starting to see the development of cyano , so the plan is to move the lights to a position several feet above to create more of an ambient lighting effect. If this doesn't help with the cyano  then I'll switch to a light source for the broodstock only tank and leave the nursery with no direct lights. (The photoperiod is important to get the PS to keep spawning).

....my next entry should be the announcment of the larvae (I hope).
 

Day 23..............both still holding................

Here is another very interesting occurrence.....today, while feeding the adult broodstock I noticed an empty carapace, the adults have undergone a full molt while holding the eggs at day 23 and it has not effected the eggs at all.  I didn't know that this was possible.
So while we are waiting on this ever so slow larvae to make their grand appearance, let me mention something about feeding time.  At feeding time I simply slice off a sliver of my frozen seafood goo and stick it to the end of my finger, each PS comes up to the surface in turn hangs on to my finger then takes off to the bottom of the tank again with a nice little clump of food.  It has gotten to the point that they only have to see me coming and up they come!

It is not possible.This is a new egg batch.

Luis is correct. Mating is just after a new molt before the new skin hardens.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Gentlemen, I hear what you are both saying and would have responded the same way; however, I have the carapace and this is definitely not a new batch of eggs... the eggs are pure silver with eye spots and are almost ready for release.  So this is an event that we need to make note of...because it is most certainly happening (or should I say has most certainly taken place). 

Here is a pic of the carapace of the molt that occurred on Day 23....and also a pic of the PS still holding at day 23.  Please note the reflectlivity in the eggs and also the batch still forming behind the head......gentlemen this is not a new batch of eggs and it is possible for them to molt while still holding, here are the pics...........
http://www.marinebreeder.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=201&t=9474&p=83722
 
.

How do you know that it's the same shrimp?

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

I know its the same shrimp because it was transferred to the nursery....

Last night the larvae arrived!  Approximate count 20 at day 24-25!  There names are Sally, Susan, Robin, Brett, Marcus Apollius Mentis.......LOL!  Just kidding!  A small batch but the PS are still quite young.
 
These are doing the same as the first batch, they are attaching themselves to the sides of the nursery, for those that have attached themselves to the sides their positions are all the same, heads down and abdomens gently moving in the water column.  Now it is time to feed the rascals.

Day 2 the larvae seem to be doing very well, this morning I noticed that they have developed stalked eyes so now we are at zoeae 2.  At day two this batch seems alot larger than the first, best guess is that they are approx. 2 maybe 3 mm long.  Here's another observation, when I shine a flashlight into the nursery at night I've noticed hundreds of little copepods in the range of 100-200 microns feeding off the microalgae, these weren't there for the previous batch or at least they went unnoticed.  I can't tell if they are feeding on them or not but for now I'm going to assume that the presence of the copepods is a good thing.
 
Another note the shrimp that just spawned is holding eggs again, and its mate is still holding....I've lost track of how long the mate has been holding so I'll just keep an eye on the egg development for now.