Supplies you need to culture O. marina

This one's really pretty easy: You need the same stuff--plus one other thing--to culture O. marina that you do to culture the copepods.
 
They need a place to live. (Buckets rock!)
 
They need aeration and water movement.
 
They need to be carted around, so you need a ~50 micron screen. This time it's different, though. The O. marina goes through the screen and all the bad stuff gets trapped on the mesh. So, you pour the O. marina culture right through the screen into their new homes. By the way, I'd highly recommend getting a different sieve for the O. marina than you use for the copepods. It's not necessary, but it's good practice.
 
While we're at it, here's the new thing: I'd also recommend getting a 27 or so micron screen at some point. You won't use it everyday (it clogs way too easily), but you'll sometimes get contaminants in your cultures (I'm looking at you, ciliates) that are small enough to fit through the 50 micron sieve, but are still big enough to eat the O. marina. A 27 micron screen just gets more of those out. That's one that you'll probably have to make yourself because I've never seen one for sale.
 
And they need food. O. marina can be raised on a diet of T-Iso (from what I've heard). I wouldn't know. I started out raising them on a monodiet of RotiGrow+. That works okay. But I _really_ got phytoplankton-like culture densities when I started giving them a mix of RotiGrow+ and Nrich PL (both from Reed's). That's the good stuff.
 
Like I say, 10 gals. of O. marina is plenty for me to culture 13 gals. of Apocyclops. For a while I just had 8 gals. going and I thought that was pushing it a little. I could still harvest 2 gals. of O. marina per day, but if anything happened to one of the cultures then I was looking at some trouble. I feel more comfortable with 10 gals. And, in fact, I gave up on one of my O. marina cultures today and poured it down the drain. It wasn't a big deal since I had the extra culture going.
 
The really good thing about O. marina is that they reproduce really, really quickly. That's why it works to have less of the food culture than you have copepods going. I'm pretty confident that you could do hefty harvests on the O. marina cultures a couple of times a day if you really had to.
 
(As an aside, sorry I wasn't around much today. I'm just slammed, work-wise. Maybe not the best week to start this project, but it's not like we're really ramping this up yet, right? )

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

bahahaha....now tell me where to get some?

Well, you can get some here:
 
http://www.sbs.utexas.edu/utex/algaeDetail.aspx?algaeID=4431
 
That's the only place I know of, except for Jim and me (and maybe Joe). What's your weather like the next few weeks?

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

he he....  mine are well.. for the most part gone unless you count my remaining co-cultures...  even CCMP doesnt have them available so your stuck with Utex or waiting (though Utex is not a bad option... they have always treated me right!!)
 
If your itching to get your hands on a dino for experience Carolina Biological Supply www.carolina.com has an indefinate species of gymnodinium which I've had a lot of fun with!!  Bear in mind this is a toxic species for human consumption so I wouldnt go drinking it in large quantities...

Pelagically yours,
~J      

Andy, when you say to use a 27 micron mesh to sieve out certain ciliates, are the O marina still passing through the mesh? 
 
I've been trying to find a reference of how large O marina is and the best I could find was "8-24mm (L), 6-20mm (W)" (http://www.red-tide.org/new_site/om.htm).  That can't be millimeters though (1mm = 1,000 microns).  What measurement are they using?

Yes, O. marina does pass through 27 micron, but it's sllllloooooooowwwwww. I just started a new culture today by passing about a half-gallon from a previous culture through 27 microns. It took my entire fishroom time this morning to get that half gallon through (and I had passed it through 54 microns twice before I tried it).
 
My estimates, inaccurate as they may be, look like they are about 15 microns wide and about 25 microns long.
 
Jim? I think you took more accurate measurements at one point?

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

So based on this conversation, for the purposes of filtering the o marina for the pods, a cofee filter should be fine?  As I understand it the average coffee filter is 23 microns.

Think backwards here, we are straining everything else out of the marina culture so a coffee filter will just capture the marina along with the contaminates!
That is, providing that the average is on the high side which I generally assume... we'll want something above 25um but not much larger than 30 as the larger mesh the more chance of cilates getting through

Pelagically yours,
~J      

ok, so you really feel we need to hit between 25 and 30.  got it.  just trying to avoid having to order mesh, but makes sense.

eh who knows really, I'm basing my recommendation off of the *estimated* size of the diatom.  We might be pleasantly surprised to find out coffee filters do in fact work great!
 
I'm usually excited for an excuse to pick up another size of mesh and I have no sieves handy in this range so it's an added tool need for myself as well.  I've got 10um but after that it's 40 (which I use for my Gymnodinium) then on up the chain.  I'm wondering if the 40 might be sufficient to screen out most of the competing cilates..  I'll have to give that one a shot when I get my cultures!
 
Maybe we can nudge Jim or Andy to give the coffee filter a try and let us know the results??

Pelagically yours,
~J      

Ya, I have my 'fish money' and I just gave it away to someone who needed it, so I gotta shoe string for a little while..I think I am going to give the cofee filter a try.  Worst that happens is it doesn't work.

I think coffee filters would work fine (he says without having tried it). It'll be a pretty tight fit, so some of the O. marina might get stuck, but what comes through should be really clean. And, their population doubling size is really, really fast, so it's not like you need every one of them to make it through.
 
For example, I started a culture around noon yesterday with 0.5 gallons of strained O. marina. I immediately doubled the water volume to 1 gal. and gave them food. By evening, the gallon of culture was full. I added another gallon of water. I fully intend to harvest from that 2 gallon culture just like all the rest of them when I head down to the fish room. Their population doubling speed helps make up for a lot of mistakes.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

 
Polyester Mesh Sheet, 27 Micron $8.68 for a 12"x12"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FMUL9I
 
eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping 

I seem to remember hearing someone talk about polyester versus nylon mesh.  I can't remember which one we're supposed to avoid though.

I think that Andy Rhyne says that polyester stands up to bleaching better than nylon.

Nylon degrades over time with bleaching but not vinegar baths, I can attest to this one.  Though the reality is the average hobbyist will not notice degradation of either unless they use it on a constant basis.  Unless your using it constantly there really is no major difference IMHO. 

Pelagically yours,
~J      

so for the project should we be getting this going, or still wait till the fall for the main project? I'm just trying to stay ahead of the game.

RLTW

180 Gallon Mixed Reef

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8

Well, Jim tells me that I'm being over-cautious on shipping. I was trying to make it as cheap as possible on people and wait 'til the weather could support two-day. But I think if you get overnight packages reasonably early and it's not getting so very hot where you are, then we could probably do overnight. Remember that afternoon temps in the trucks will still run in the 100s.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Let me do an experiment with a styro shipper, a bag of 70F water, a thermometer, and a 100F+ place for it to sit for the afternoon.  I have a place that should get nice and hot today, so let me get back to you in a few hours.

uhm...
 
*raises hand*
 
can I just drive over there and pick some up?  maybe actually make good on that pizza I owe you.....

Pelagically yours,
~J      

Just let me know how it goes and I'll pay for the shipping and whatever else.
 
 

RLTW

180 Gallon Mixed Reef

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8

Preliminary shipper temp experiment results:  I put two, 1-liter bags of 70F water (one with a thermometer inside) into a standard Seahorse Source styro shipper, placing the bags on a 1" bed of styro peanuts, and then filling the rest of the shipper with more styro peanuts.  Taped the cardboard box shut.  Put the box in the back of my Volvo wagon that had been sitting in the sun all day, with the windows rolled up.  Ambient temp. outside today has ranged from 75-80F in the shade.  The temp in the car has ranged from 95F to 115F (!) over the last 3+ hours.  It has been over 100F for more than 2 hours, more like 3 hours.  I just pulled the package out, and the outside of it was VERY HOT to the touch (115F).  The thermometer read 76F.  I closed it all back up, and put it back into the hot car, and will check on it again later.

 
Sure. When you want to do that? Come up on a Friday then stop back by the salami place on the way home. You won't regret it.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Heck, for that matter, Joe, I can just make up a salami sampler for you whenever you'd like to come by. It'll be gooooooddddd......

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

As the sun moved westward, and more direct sunlight was coming in the passenger side windows (car was facing south), that combined with the reflected heat off of the white garage door to the east brought the temperature, in the shade, inside the car to over 130F!  The box had sat, in the shade (no direct sunlight hitting the box in the car), in temperatures over 120F for at least another hour.  The thermometer in the water in the bag now reads 80F.
 
I think it's safe to say that shipping overnight this time of year is quite acceptable, IMHO.  I subjected the box to conditions MUCH more extreme than any box in an open UPS or FedEx truck would be subjected to.  Total exposure was to temperatures well over 100F, reaching 130F, for over 5 hours (more like 6 hours), with a total rise in internal temp from 70F to 80F only.

nice experiement

ok. just ordered a couple of the sheets of 27um mesh. I still need to get an O. marina and it's food. Does anyone have a link for what to feed them? Any idea on the cost? Can it be cultured?

RLTW

180 Gallon Mixed Reef

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8

Roti-Grow Plus and N-Rich (together with ClorAm-X)  have been used before.  They are Reed Mariculture products.  You can, of course culture live phyto to feed O. marina, but if you're successful at doing that, it begs the question of whether you need O. marina or not!

Eh dont think of it as a phyto replacement but a phyto enrichment... one can take the easier standards such as nanno and tet.... feed the O marina... and bang... something with movement and a different size / flavor

Pelagically yours,
~J      

Which is why I said "begs the question".  One can probably raise many species of copepods just fine with the right phytoplankton(s), so perhaps it is not necessary to raise O. marina to feed your copepods if you are successful at raising the right microalgae.  But then again, perhaps there is something to "trophic upgrading", and even though it is not necessary, it may still be beneficial to raise O. marina, too.

I have a good culture of nanno going right now. I have 4 full 2L bottles and should have 6 by the weekend. I'm getting ready to start up another rotifer culture though. I guess I may need to put off the rotifers and make some more nanno before I get going to strong for my pod culture.

RLTW

180 Gallon Mixed Reef

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8

Jim--Sorry I never got back to this. Thanks for doing the shipping experiment. I was trying to keep people's costs down so I was trying to wait until we could go with less packaging (since these are quite hardy critters). But if people want to do the shipments sooner, let me know. We just had the hottest day of our summer today, but it's supposed to moderate a little.
 
rgrking--I do not know if you can maintain an O. marina or Apocyclops culture on nanno alone. I would tend to doubt it, personally. Then again, the O. marina can survive on RotiGrow+, which is based on nanno as far as I can tell, so it's possible. They don't do nearly as well as I would like on RG+ alone, but it's certainly something to experiment with.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

hmm. What do you feed them then? Would I need to start a T iso culture? I'm not sure I can maintain the temp that it needs.

RLTW

180 Gallon Mixed Reef

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8

What do you mean by "them"?

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

sorry T-iso is them

RLTW

180 Gallon Mixed Reef

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8

We're still consistently around 107 - 108 F here, so I'm waiting a bit longer to ask to ship this way.  In the meantime I'm working on my rotifer culture and trying to figure out how to transfer containers without making a mess.

I got my 27um sheets in yesterday. I can use them for this project and for my shrimp breeding. good times there! lol

RLTW

180 Gallon Mixed Reef

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8

And 108 in Denton is like 115 anywhere else. I used to live on Oak Street, 20 years ago. I heard they just tore my old house down over there this summer.
 
Sorry I haven't been around. Work is ugly right now. All the authors are dumping work on me like crazy. It's always like this at the end of the summer.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Thanks to Kathy for posting this: http://www.mbisite.org/Forums/tm.aspx?m=59489
 
This is what I picked up from some comments that Adelaide made once, but I never knew where her source was. Thanks for posting that, Kathy!

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Sure thing.  Makes sense that if O marina can make DHA out of lesser alga, that that may be why we have such success when we feed it to copepods.