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Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Friday, August 26, 2011 7:53 PM
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Breeding Journal DataSheet
This first post should be updated regularly to include new information as events take place or changes are made to your system General Species: Pterapogon kauderni Social Structure: Shoal Size of Individuals: varies Age of Individuals: varies Date added to Tank: not introduced yet Broodstock Tank Details Size of Tank: 150g (24"x48"x30") Substrate Details: Crushed coral, fine and medium and coarse grained sand. Filtration Details: HOB Skimmer and LR Water Changes: Water Temperature: 76 Lighting: two 54w HO Lighting Cycle: 10/14 Other Tank Inhabitants: long spined urchins Broodstock Feeding Details Food Types: Feeding Schedule: Spawning Details Date of First Spawn: Spawn Time of Day: Dates of Consecutive Spawns: Courtship Details: Egg Size: Egg Color: Egg Count: Hatch Details Hatch Date: Hatch Time of Day: # Days after Spawn: Larvae Description: Larval Tank Details Temperature: Size of Larval Tank: Substrate Details: Other Tank Decor: Filtration Details: Lighting: Lighting Cycle: Water Changes: Larval Feeding Details Food Types: Feeding Schedule: Metamorphosis/Settlement Date of Settlement Start: Days after Hatch: Date of Settlement End: Description of Fry:
Grow-Out Tank Details Temperature: Size of Grow-Out Tank: Substrate Details: Other Tank Decor: Filtration Details: Lighting: Lighting Cycle: Water Changes: Size at Transfer: Age at Transfer: Grow-Out Feeding Details Food Types: Feeding Schedule: Additional Information (No Pictures or Videos in the Section Please) Miscellaneous Information: You will be required to provide photographic or video evidence in this thread of each event submitted for the MBI Program.
If your thread does not contain these photos the MBI Committee will not be able to approve your reports. PHOTOS AND VIDEO S MUST BE PLACED IN ADDITIONAL POSTS, NEVER IN THE FIRST POST IN A JOURNAL.
<message edited by Caesra on Monday, November 21, 2011 11:21 AM>
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Friday, August 26, 2011 8:04 PM
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I am starting this journal because this is a curiosity project for me. My goals for this project are the following
1) Determine if a schoal of Banggai can be kept in a 150g. Assess aggression in the environment.
2) Grow and maintain breeding pairs within the schoal
3) Determine if baby bangaii can survive within a schoal that is this confined.
It is my aim to populate this aquarium with roughly 20 banggai from different sources, WC and captive, not more than two from any given source.
All Bangaii introduced will go through an 8 week QT. I have learned this lesson with previous attempts to form pairs, that onset of disease can occur well after a standard 4-6 week QT. I had a batch of QTed fish break out with a parasite in an isolated system a week after being moved into brood tanks. This wiped out all of the fish they came in physical contact with.
I will populate introduce long spined urchins into the tank, expecting to stick to 2-3. I am hoping to find the seagrass Enhalus acoroides, but thus far I have not been able to find a source, so I may need to stick to sea grasses found in florida. It is my intention to also introdce a few mangroves into the system, but that final decision will be made on this later. A large clean up crew will be added to the tank to assist with waste, as this system does not contain a sump. Just a small HOB skimmer.
Water changes will occur daily by adding water from my broodstock system into the tank via pump and the an overflow handling the return to the broodstock tank.
I currently have 6 Banggai in QT and am still seeking out more. I will add two from my captive stock, making the total at this point to be 8. The age ranges at this point appear to be between 6 months-1 year.
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Tuesday, August 30, 2011 1:50 AM
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So far the QT of the 6 I have been able to aquire is going well. QT started on 8/13, but I know that two of the acquired fish in a seperate QT had been isolated from other bangaii ( for over 4 weeks prior to my acquiring them, and were in an isolated system from other fish for at least 2 weeks) so I may introduce them into the species tank middle of September to start moving that system along. That will give the tank a few weeks to get the macro established. After reading I decided to just go with C. prolifera in the tank for macro. It is fast growing, will grow dense and should be able to sustain a couple of urchins in the tank. I know the coverage from the C prolifera also works well for baby bangaii hiding, as the last batch I hatched were in the tank for awhile hiding amongst it with some success. So this is the start of the tank. If I knew I was going to go with prolifera..i certainly would not have gone with this much substrate...but what is done is done. I may take advantage of it with adding some mangroves.  yes i know, i didn't clean the glass  The height of the rock structures did not come out the way I wanted, but I ran out of LR and will likely add more later....just not now. Still hunting for my upper level rock. Right now the system is directly attached to the broodstock system to assist with clearing out the 'dust'.
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Friday, September 23, 2011 10:55 PM
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The project is moving along fine. I have gone ahead and put in the existing sets of banggai, and they have had a week or so to get settled in. You can tell the older ones are pairing up, as two are hanging out together and the other of similar size is hiding almost constantly. Not worried about diseased, which was my first rection, because if I put food right where the hiding one is, it comes out right away and begins eating.
Tank is settling down from cyno bloom. I dont have any cuc in the tank at this point, so I am just letting it run its course. The urchin uprooted some of the macro, and it seems to be having a hard time growing at this depth, even with 400w MHs on for a few hours a day. We will see how it acclimates and if it starts to grow. The urchin does nto seem to be interested in eating it.
i have four more in QT and I may add them early to help ease the aggression on the other older one in the tank now. If I do it, I will detach the tank from the breeding system until I am comfy that everyone is disease free.
Still trying to hunt down another 4 or so to add to the system. Really want to hit a minimum of 15.
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Saturday, September 24, 2011 8:38 PM
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Well by this morning the pair's aggression had heightened and they had all of the smaller fish and the one larger one backed into a corner. So went ahead and pulled the other 4 out of QT, seperated the tank from the brood system and put them in. It seems to have settled everyone down quite a bit. The 4 that were in the QT were the largest of all the fish. Tonight at feeding time, everyone was roaming around and getting along much better. We will see what happens as we move down the road.
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Sunday, September 25, 2011 6:46 PM
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At this point, aggression has picked back up, but mostly chasing at this point. It appears I have two pairs (or two fish...physical distinctions are not quite apparent at this point to ID male/female) that are riding a territory in the tank, one set has adopted the upper left side and the other set appears to have adopted the right bottom. The remaining fish are staying together as a group and actually shoaling quite well at this point. Staying very close, and generally all pointing the same direction and moving together. The pairs keep forcing them into areas of the tanks where it becomes more difficult, but when everything is relaxed, such as after eating, the group forms up nicely. The general position of the remaining group is behind the rock structure, and was left open for just this reason. The layout is basically as below (this is an above shot from before the rock work was put into the tank. The red line indicates roughly the tank edges.  So far the rock structures are doing their part, although I am still concerned the unfinished nature of them is going to prevent some success in this experiment. It was my intent for the two walls to be higher by about 9", providing more separation of space. In addition it was my goal to have a large rock create a horizontal separation to create more 'zones' in the tank. At this point I ran out of rock for heightening the structure, and have not been able to find a suitable flat rock to create the horizontal zone. The macro is stumbling quite a bit, if I am following the pattern at this point, every time I turn on the MHs the macro recedes. Backwards I know, but that appears to be the pattern. I am going to keep the MHs off and see if there is some recovery. Replant after that.
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 10:34 PM
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A pair has completely seperated off. And the female looks like she is carrying eggs. I will be watching...the odd thing is she is not eating, which normally I am use to seeing the female eat always. but her belly is quite bulged.
<message edited by Caesra on Wednesday, October 5, 2011 11:47 AM>
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Thursday, October 6, 2011 12:32 AM
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An updated photo, as well as a quick vid of the two that appear to be working on spawning.  
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Thursday, October 6, 2011 8:34 PM
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Well, I saw alot more aggression in general today. It didnt seem like a pairing thing or a specific individual at this point, but there was alot of random chasing going around.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Friday, October 7, 2011 8:57 PM
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Did not see alot of aggression today and the two that were off by themselves have no rejoined the group and are eating. Colors have returned to normal too. So maybe they were just the result of some group jockeying.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Friday, October 14, 2011 9:13 PM
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Well as things have settled down, two more have been added into the group. The larger the group becomse the more settled it becomes. There does not appear to be any pairings occuring yet, so we will see how it progresses. Every few days or so, I do tend to find one fish off hiding from the group, refusing to eat. But the fish always comes back to the group by the next day. It appears to not be the same fish each time, but I will be watching. I need fish tags. 
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Thursday, November 3, 2011 10:56 AM
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Well today I have my first egg carrier (He is the largest male in the group). No aggression in the tank at all, the female seems to have given the eggs and rejoined the group. I do not know which female provided the eggs, I noticed one that was swelling a bit a few days ago.
The group tends to stay in relative proxmity to each other (very loose though). The male is staying at the bottom, but under the majority group. He is not hiding like I typically see with just pairs. He is suprisingly "untimid" although as I said, he is staying very low in the tank.
It will be interesting to see what happens next.
Food regiment has shifted over more towards majority Rods Fish blend. They still get a mixed once a day or so, but the primary set of feedings is Rods 3-4x a day
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Thursday, November 3, 2011 1:23 PM
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I think I am going to stand corrected. Observing the tank from around the corner (where they cant see me)...the male is under the main group, the main group is doing their normal thing. One female is off on the opposite side of the tank, chasing her image furiously. She has been doing this for hours, as I have been peeking around the corner every half hour or so.
So while there is no aggression now, if I have two mature females, what will happen. I am also curious what the visual que is that causes her to attack her own image instead of the group.
I am also noticing alot more "dancing" in the main group than normal.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Friday, November 4, 2011 4:00 AM
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 Originally Posted by Caesra Observing the tank from around the corner (where they cant see me)...
Have you considered a web cam? Jeff
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Friday, November 4, 2011 6:19 AM
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this is a great experiment and im following
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Friday, November 11, 2011 7:34 PM
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Sorry i have been slow in updating. Just too much to do.
So the update so far is:
11/9/11 - Second male carrying...might have been on the 8th (didnt have time to observe).
This female is guarding her male, but they seem to be happy to use the different 'zones' I setup as cover. This pair does join the group from time to time, and the female tends to posture alot and simply keep near her male. She has been observed to be on the opposite side of the tank from him on occasion.
The original father's mouth has decreased in girth, but he does appear to still be holding as you can see him still turn in the eggs in his mouth. The female does not seem to have any interest in him, he is usually still under the main pack by himself.
I am trying to figure out if I have a third holding. I have three not eating, and the third appears to be a male, but the mouth is only slightly enlarged. So I am not sure if he is holding or on hunger strike. He remains near the main group, but is solo most of the time.
The females seem to be generally aggressive (posturing only) toward any fish they have not been 'selected'. There are at least two other females hydrating at the moment. One is desperatly trying to convince the original male to pay attention to her. The other one does not seem to have selected a potential mate (but her belly has just started enlarging).
The females that display aggression, seem to do it towards any non-holding male and any other female. in other words, any fish is open game as long as they are not a holding male. For the most part the holding males seem to be able to do whatever they want and not be harrassed.
None of the fish have any physical damage, and all aggression appears to be purely posturing.
The holding males will every once in awhile chase another fish, but it appears to be mostly an attempt to get a fish out of their spot, not aggression.
The interesting thing about all of this so far is that the number of fish seems to be very relevant. I believe at this moment I have close to equal males and females in the tank, but I cant confirm until they all mature. So what is happening, as males begin to hold the number of available fish to harass goes down. Thus qty of non-carrying males helps to distribute the aggression. What I am suggesting is if I have 5 males carrying, the number of fish to distribute aggression goes down to 9, and assuming 5 of the fish are contributing to the harrassing, that means 4 are left over to be constantly harrassed. Yes, the females are harrassing one another, but the mature females seem to be more willing to spend time chasing (thus not being chased). Suggesting that in overall terms, the immature fish and non-holding males will take most of the aggression.
I will keep watching this to see how the aggression is divied out. What I am suggesting is probably that a decent number of immature fish need to be kept introduced in order to ensure that there are enough fish to keep aggression (to a single indivudual) levels down.
I think that is it for the time being, I am sure I forgot something. O, I did remove the urchin back to the sump for the time being, simply because he would not let any macro get established, and I feel the macro is important for the potential survival of any babies.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Friday, November 11, 2011 8:12 PM
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Friday, November 11, 2011 9:22 PM
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Interesting observations. You're having more success with this method than I figured you would. I like what you're seeing.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Saturday, November 12, 2011 8:44 PM
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well, today we have 3 males carrying. The third has quite a mouth full. I am assuming they came from the female that was harrassing the first male to carry. He still has eggs. He actually showed them to me today, very small amount, but he still has them.
I assume the third father received his eggs from the female that was harrasing the first yesterday because she does not appear to be swelled anymore. There is still one more female in the group that appears to be developming eggs. The interesting thing is one of the oldest males (probably the oldest), is not carrying. I observed an interesting period of him trying to show off his jaw to the female who appear to be developing eggs. Only way I can describe it was as though he was flexing his muscle (went on for a little over a minute). Opening his mouth right at her and flexing the sides of his lower jaw. I didn't have time to grab a camera, as I had to leave in a few minutes after observing this.
In any event, what is interesting about the situation, although he is probably the oldest male, he arrived here damaged. His jaw was busted right down the middle. I do not know if the jaw itself has healed, but the tissue has, but has left a large white spot, dead center in the middle of the jaw where the break was (makes it easy to indentify him). So just interesting tid bit how he has not been selected to carry and in fact appears to be showing off his ability, where I have never seen such behavior in any other male.
Sorry for the 'first', 'third' and all that. I am tempted to take pics of each so I can ID them by there spots and refer to them that way.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni
Saturday, November 19, 2011 9:51 PM
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well, each of the fathers lost their eggs this week. Might be partially my fault, I had not checked my nitrates in the system and they had spiked pretty hard. Doing water changes to bring them back down. in general the group is pretty calm most of the week. Today there is still some bickering going on and some hydrating, so I am assuming females are selecting a new mate.
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