Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni

General
Species:  Pterapogon kauderni
Social Structure:  Shoal
Size of Individuals:  varies
Age of Individuals:  varies
Date added to Tank:  not introduced yet

Broodstock Tank Details
Size of Tank:  150g (24"x48"x30")
Substrate Details:  Crushed coral, fine and medium and coarse grained sand.
Filtration Details:  HOB Skimmer and LR
Water Changes: 
Water Temperature:  76
Lighting:  two 54w HO
Lighting Cycle:  10/14
Other Tank Inhabitants:  long spined urchins

Broodstock Feeding Details
Food Types: 
Feeding Schedule: 

Spawning Details
Date of First Spawn: 
Spawn Time of Day: 
Dates of Consecutive Spawns: 
Courtship Details: 
Egg Size: 
Egg Color: 
Egg Count: 

Hatch Details
Hatch Date: 
Hatch Time of Day: 
# Days after Spawn: 
Larvae Description: 


Larval Tank Details
Temperature: 
Size of Larval Tank: 
Substrate Details: 
Other Tank Decor: 
Filtration Details: 
Lighting: 
Lighting Cycle: 
Water Changes: 

Larval Feeding Details
Food Types: 
Feeding Schedule: 

Metamorphosis/Settlement
Date of Settlement Start: 
Days after Hatch: 
Date of Settlement End: 
Description of Fry: 

Grow-Out Tank Details
Temperature: 
Size of Grow-Out Tank: 
Substrate Details: 
Other Tank Decor: 
Filtration Details: 
Lighting: 
Lighting Cycle: 
Water Changes: 
Size at Transfer: 
Age at Transfer: 

Grow-Out Feeding Details
Food Types: 
Feeding Schedule: 

Additional Information

(No Pictures or Videos in the Section Please)
Miscellaneous Information: 



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I am starting this journal because this is a curiosity project for me.  My goals for this project are the following
 
1) Determine if a schoal of Banggai can be kept in a 150g.  Assess aggression in the environment.
2) Grow and maintain breeding pairs within the schoal
3) Determine if baby bangaii can survive within a schoal that is this confined.
 
It is my aim to populate this aquarium with roughly 20 banggai from different sources, WC and captive, not more than two from any given source. 
 
All Bangaii introduced will go through an 8 week QT.  I have learned this lesson with previous attempts to form pairs, that onset of disease can occur well after a standard 4-6 week QT.  I had a batch of QTed fish break out with a parasite in an isolated system a week after being moved into brood tanks.  This wiped out all of the fish they came in physical contact with.
 
I will populate introduce long spined urchins into the tank, expecting to stick to 2-3.  I am hoping to find the seagrass Enhalus acoroides, but thus far I have not been able to find a source, so I may need to stick to sea grasses found in florida.  It is my intention to also introdce a few mangroves into the system, but that final decision will be made on this later.  A large clean up crew will be added to the tank to assist with waste, as this system does not contain a sump.  Just a small HOB skimmer.
 
Water changes will occur daily by adding water from my broodstock system into the tank via pump and the an overflow handling the return to the broodstock tank.
 
 
I currently have 6 Banggai in QT and am still seeking out more.  I will add two from my captive stock, making the total at this point to be 8.  The age ranges at this point appear to be between 6 months-1 year.

So far the QT of the 6 I have been able to aquire is going well.  QT started on 8/13, but I know that two of the acquired fish in a seperate QT had been isolated from other bangaii ( for over 4 weeks prior to my acquiring them, and were in an isolated system from other fish for at least 2 weeks) so I may introduce them into the species tank middle of September to start moving that system along.  That will give the tank a few weeks to get the macro established. 
 
After reading I decided to just go with C. prolifera in the tank for macro.  It is fast growing, will grow dense and should be able to sustain a couple of urchins in the tank.  I know the coverage from the C prolifera also works well for baby bangaii hiding, as the last batch I hatched were in the tank for awhile hiding amongst it with some success.
 
So this is the start of the tank.  If I knew I was going to go with prolifera..i certainly would not have gone with this much substrate...but what is done is done.  I may take advantage of it with adding some mangroves.
 
yes i know, i didn't clean the glass
 
The height of the rock structures did not come out the way I wanted, but I ran out of LR and will likely add more later....just not now.  Still hunting for my upper level rock.
 
Right now the system is directly attached to the broodstock system to assist with clearing out the 'dust'.

The project is moving along fine.  I have gone ahead and put in the existing sets of banggai, and they have had a week or so to get settled in.   You can tell the older ones are pairing up, as two are hanging out together and the other of similar size is hiding almost constantly.  Not worried about diseased, which was my first rection, because if I put food right where the hiding one is, it comes out right away and begins eating.
 
Tank is settling down from cyno bloom.  I dont have any cuc in the tank at this point, so I am just letting it run its course.  The urchin uprooted some of the macro, and it seems to be having a hard time growing at this depth, even with 400w MHs on for a few hours a day.  We will see how it acclimates and if it starts to grow.  The urchin does nto seem to be interested in eating it.
 
i have four more in QT and I may add them early to help ease the aggression on the other older one in the tank now.  If I do it, I will detach the tank from the breeding system until I am comfy that everyone is disease free.
 
Still trying to hunt down another 4 or so to add to the system.  Really want to hit a minimum of 15.

Well by this morning the pair's aggression had heightened and they had all of the smaller fish and the one larger one backed into a corner.  So went ahead and pulled the other 4 out of QT, seperated the tank from the brood system and put them in.  It seems to have settled everyone down quite a bit.  The 4 that were in the QT were the largest of all the fish.  Tonight at feeding time, everyone was roaming around and getting along much better.  We will see what happens as we move down the road.

At this point, aggression has picked back up, but mostly chasing at this point.  It appears I have two pairs (or two fish...physical distinctions are not quite apparent at this point to ID male/female) that are riding a territory in the tank, one set has adopted the upper left side and the other set appears to have adopted the right bottom.
 
The remaining fish are staying together as a group and actually shoaling quite well at this point.  Staying very close, and generally all pointing the same direction and moving together.  The pairs keep forcing them into areas of the tanks where it becomes more difficult, but when everything is relaxed, such as after eating, the group forms up nicely.  The general position of the remaining group is behind the rock structure, and was left open for just this reason.
 
The layout is basically as below (this is an above shot from before the rock work was put into the tank.  The red line indicates roughly the tank edges.
 

 
So far the rock structures are doing their part, although I am still concerned the unfinished nature of them is going to prevent some success in this experiment.  It was my intent for the two walls to be higher by about 9", providing more separation of space.  In addition it was my goal to have a large rock create a horizontal separation to create more 'zones' in the tank.  At this point I ran out of rock for heightening the structure, and have not been able to find a suitable flat rock to create the horizontal zone.
 
The macro is stumbling quite a bit, if I am following the pattern at this point, every time I turn on the MHs the macro recedes.  Backwards I know, but that appears to be the pattern.  I am going to keep the MHs off and see if there is some recovery.  Replant after that.

A pair has completely seperated off.  And the female looks like she is carrying eggs.  I will be watching...the odd thing is she is not eating, which normally I am use to seeing the female eat always. but her belly is quite bulged.

An updated photo, as well as a quick vid of the two that appear to be working on spawning.
 

Well, I saw alot more aggression in general today.  It didnt seem like a pairing thing or a specific individual at this point, but there was alot of random chasing going around.

Did not see alot of aggression today and the two that were off by themselves have no rejoined the group and are eating.  Colors have returned to normal too.  So maybe they were just the result of some group jockeying.

Well as things have settled down, two more have been added into the group.  The larger the group becomse the more settled it becomes.  There does not appear to be any pairings occuring yet, so we will see how it progresses.
 
Every few days or so, I do tend to find one fish off hiding from the group, refusing to eat.  But the fish always comes back to the group by the next day.  It appears to not be the same fish each time, but I will be watching. 
 
I need fish tags.

Well today I have my first egg carrier (He is the largest male in the group).   No aggression in the tank at all, the female seems to have given the eggs and rejoined the group.  I do not know which female provided the eggs, I noticed one that was swelling a bit a few days ago.
 
The group tends to stay in relative proxmity to each other (very loose though).  The male is staying at the bottom, but under the majority group.  He is not hiding like I typically see with just pairs.  He is suprisingly "untimid" although as I said, he is staying very low in the tank.
 
It will be interesting to see what happens next.
 
Food regiment has shifted over more towards majority Rods Fish blend.  They still get a mixed once a day or so, but the primary set of feedings is Rods 3-4x a day

I think I am going to stand corrected.  Observing the tank from around the corner (where they cant see me)...the male is under the main group, the main group is doing their normal thing.  One female is off on the opposite side of the tank, chasing her image furiously.  She has been doing this for hours, as I have been peeking around the corner every half hour or so.
 
So while there is no aggression now, if I have two mature females, what will happen.  I am also curious what the visual que is that causes her to attack her own image instead of the group.
 
I am also noticing alot more "dancing" in the main group than normal.

Have you considered a web cam?
 
Jeff

this is a great experiment and im following

Sorry i have been slow in updating.  Just too much to do.
 
So the update so far is:
11/9/11 - Second male carrying...might have been on the 8th (didnt have time to observe).
This female is guarding her male, but they seem to be happy to use the different 'zones' I setup as cover.  This pair does join the group from time to time, and the female tends to posture alot and simply keep near her male.  She has been observed to be on the opposite side of the tank from him on occasion.
 
The original father's mouth has decreased in girth, but he does appear to still be holding as you can see him still turn in the eggs in his mouth.  The female does not seem to have any interest in him, he is usually still under the main pack by himself.
 
I am trying to figure out if I have a third holding.  I have three not eating, and the third appears to be a male, but the mouth is only slightly enlarged.  So I am not sure if he is holding or on hunger strike.  He remains near the main group, but is solo most of the time.
 
The females seem to be generally aggressive (posturing only) toward any fish they have not been 'selected'.  There are at least two other females hydrating at the moment.  One is desperatly trying to convince the original male to pay attention to her.  The other one does not seem to have selected a potential mate (but her belly has just started enlarging).
 
The females that display aggression, seem to do it towards any non-holding male and any other female.  in other words, any fish is open game as long as they are not a holding male.  For the most part the holding males seem to be able to do whatever they want and not be harrassed.
 
None of the fish have any physical damage, and all aggression appears to be purely posturing.
 
The holding males will every once in awhile chase another fish, but it appears to be mostly an attempt to get a fish out of their spot, not aggression.
 
The interesting thing about all of this so far is that the number of fish seems to be very relevant.  I believe at this moment I have close to equal males and females in the tank, but I cant confirm until they all mature.  So what is happening, as males begin to hold the number of available fish to harass goes down.  Thus qty of non-carrying males helps to distribute the aggression.  What I am suggesting is if I have 5 males carrying, the number of fish to distribute aggression goes down to 9, and assuming 5 of the fish are contributing to the harrassing, that means 4 are left over to be constantly harrassed.  Yes, the females are harrassing one another, but the mature females seem to be more willing to spend time chasing (thus not being chased).  Suggesting that in overall terms, the immature fish and non-holding males will take most of the aggression.
 
I will keep watching this to see how the aggression is divied out.  What I am suggesting is probably that a decent number of immature fish need to be kept introduced in order to ensure that there are enough fish to keep aggression (to a single indivudual) levels down.
 
I think that is it for the time being, I am sure I forgot something.  O, I did remove the urchin back to the sump for the time being, simply because he would not let any macro get established, and I feel the macro is important for the potential survival of any babies.

been trying to find a decent vid of the egg transfer process for those curious.  found one that is good..so for those of you curious
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99KjzGAUOGY

Interesting observations.  You're having more success with this method than I figured you would.  I like what you're seeing.

well, today we have 3 males carrying.  The third has quite a mouth full.  I am assuming they came from the female that was harrassing the first male to carry.  He still has eggs.  He actually showed them to me today, very small amount, but he still has them.
 
I assume the third father received his eggs from the female that was harrasing the first yesterday because she does not appear to be swelled anymore.  There is still one more female in the group that appears to be developming eggs.  The interesting thing is one of the oldest males (probably the oldest), is not carrying.  I observed an interesting period of him trying to show off his jaw to the female who appear to be developing eggs.  Only way I can describe it was as though he was flexing his muscle (went on for a little over a minute).  Opening his mouth right at her and flexing the sides of his lower jaw.  I didn't have time to grab a camera, as I had to leave in a few minutes after observing this.
 
In any event, what is interesting about the situation, although he is probably the oldest male, he arrived here damaged.  His jaw was busted right down the middle.  I do not know if the jaw itself has healed, but the tissue has, but has left a large white spot, dead center in the middle of the jaw where the break was (makes it easy to indentify him).  So just interesting tid bit how he has not been selected to carry and in fact appears to be showing off his ability, where I have never seen such behavior in any other male.
 
Sorry for the 'first', 'third' and all that.  I am tempted to take pics of each so I can ID them by there spots and refer to them that way.

well, each of the fathers lost their eggs this week.  Might be partially my fault, I had not checked my nitrates in the system and they had spiked pretty hard.  Doing water changes to bring them back down.  in general the group is pretty calm most of the week.  Today there is still some bickering going on and some hydrating, so I am assuming females are selecting a new mate.

well, within 30 minutes of the last post, I had a father carrying eggs.  I was sitting right next to the tank when it happened (and of course was too focused talking to Tal in chat to see it =P)
 
Shortly after the exchange, all of the chasing died down.  Things have been pretty calm today.
 
Just like in most of the other cases, the holding fish is sitting about 9" below the main group by himself.

Interesting observations, thanks for posting all the details.

Well, as life has it, I am out of town mostly right now, and looks like it will be this way for awhile. So this experiement will really get it's chance to go without my involvement. So far the wife has taken over feeding (and she has no clue what she is doing), but spawnings have continued regularly. I can't give estimates on how many, but when I come home on weekend I have 2-3 holding on any given weekend. I have lost all of my plants in the tank due to overfeeding, which has caused a nitrate spike. Despite this spike, spawns still continue. There is absolutely no hostile behavior I can find when I am home. Everyone is getting along great. The holding males seem to congregate and the females are always back in the group.

OK, well to update, as I have been terribly busy.  I have had to work out of town for quite a while so I have been relying on the wife to care for the fish, which hasnt gone all that well.  But she is trying
 
So to update this, the system this group is attached to had a nitrate spike within a few weeks of being out of town, I mean a massive spike (200+).  All the fish stopped spawning.  I have been doing very large water changes over several weeks to bring the nitrates back down...getting there...down to about 30ish now.  The macro all died off during the spike and some nasty algea took hold.
 
The algea is going away and things are settling down.  During this recovery period I had my wife cut the food back substantially.  So more or less, the experiement is on pause.
 
During this time, I had one of the group somehow wind up in the intake of the HOB skimmer that is on this tank to help extract the excess food being dumped into this tank.  I had been lazy and did not put a cover over the inlet, but somehow it looks like one got stuck and died as a result.  Problem is now corrected.  Lesson learned.
 
So everything is on pause until all is recovered and we can resume normal feeding.

sorry for the loss. hope everything else bounces back fast for you.

RLTW

180 Gallon Mixed Reef

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8

Tank is in alot better condition now.  Macro is reestablishing and other fish in the system are spawning again.  so hopefully just a matter of time before these guys are back on the road so we can see how well this little experiment goes.

Well, finally had another spawn in this tank. The other pairs in the system took off about a month ago, and now these guys are resuming. Appears to be just one carrying at the moment, although it looks like another female is starting to develop eggs.

hi loving this project,  i have a 400ltr sump, and thinking i could use it in a simular way
 
are you having any aggression problems or are they just sorting it out themselves with out injury or loss,
 
do you plan to raise the babies or is this just a reaserch project? if so what would you be planning to do with the little ones seperate them as soon as realesed?
 
sorry for the questions but as said its a very interesting project

I am actually just letting nature take its course.  So far, none of the juvies growing to adult have carried, but I am hopeful I have my first.  21+ days at the moment.  So looks like I will get my first batch hatched in this tank.  Not sure how well they babies will fair, but I am hopeful.
 
Agression has been a non-issue.  The only aggresion I observe is during spawn.  The males tend to hide about 2 feet from the group and tend to maintain that, even if needing to go behind rockwork to maintain it.  Pretty consistent with what I have observed over time.
 
I will say I am gone about 4 days a week, but that still leaves me 3 days to observe and the behavior is consistent.  Zero aggression towards the males holding.

Currently 3 carrying, still do have yet to observe any aggression.  But I did have one manage to jump (so maybe some aggression at some point).  I have never covered my bang tanks...but they are covered now.
 
Female carrying jumped.  Very sad....
 
I have not had large success gettign the macro to grow in this tank, assumably to the depth.  This weekend I set the MHs to turn on for 5 hours a day to try to get some pentration in the water column.  Time is set for 5 hours.
 
5 new Bangs in QT now, all look to be roughly between 5-8 months.  The size ranges.  While I normally only purchase 2-3 at a time to help ensure the stock has a decent potential of being from different parents, these were pretty substantially different in size, so the hope is they are from different parents.
 
4 seem to be doing fine in QT.  One is skiddish, and not eating well.  So that is not a good sign, as so far when I have found one to completly withdraw from eating, that often means that the next stages of decline for the group is comming.  They are one week into QT...so we will see.  They will spend a minimum of 8 weeks in QT due to lessons learned with other batches.
 
No Signs of rapid breathing that I see when one has become infected.  I also tend to see complete suclusion when a batch is going south, and that is not present yet.
 

Hi Eric, has there been in progress with this shoal?  Have you been able to collect any juveniles for grow out? 

Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]

Going to answer your question as part of journal continuation
 
I have not been able to collect juvis.  I have not witnessed any juvis yet, but there is no question about if spawning is occuring.  From general overservation, I would suggest most batches are not held to term (thinking due to over crowding).  I have not had success in getting the foliage to grow dense and the fake plants I tried don't seem to cut it.  So I think the two spawns that have released have resulted in being ate.  The spawning continues, still usually at least 2 males carrying at any give time. 
 
I did notice after the last addition of stock, aggression went up, so I fear that the space I have had become to close for comfort.  Still debating moving them out of this tank and into a larger holding tank that is a bit shallower.  Was looking at a 600g.
 
I did have two fish (both appear to be female) become ill, have no clue with what and all of my hunting for an answer has not turned up an answer.   Those two fish were removed, and QTed and one has died at this point.  If anyone has seen this before.... both fish grew very dark, almost black, and showed signs of torn fins.  Didn't look like fin rot or anything.  When first died thought maybe it was an aggression issue, as I know the color tends to darken with Bangs when under stress, but when the first died, no improvement in color has been seen in the other.  Altough the fins appear to be healing.  So it is still in the air as far as cause.  Of course I will update as time progresses.  The surving bang shows no other symptoms.
 
After i removed these two sick fish, the aggression in the tank dropped back down.  So I am sitting at 15 in the group and things are a bit better on aggression.  I am thinking about removing 2 from the group because I think that will space things out better, and I am female heavy at the moment any way, where I would prefer more males than females.  The males generally seem very relaxed in the group, it is usually the females that get all in a huffy.
 
It has been interesting observing, as the shoal behavior is certainly different than couples or small groups.
 
I am planning on moving a couple of my AI Sols down to this tank to solve the macro growth problem, but I probably wont do that until mid winter.  So i don't expect alot of progress till then.  I need to figure out how to get some stock.

I recently saw a reef tank with juvies in it that were hiding in the tentacles of a Long Tentacle Anemone.  Now, LTAs require a lot of light, but maybe that could help you out...?
 
Regarding the disease, if I have a fish that I don't know what it has and it has a high risk of dying (like if one with similar symptoms has already died) then I do a Formalin dip.  Formalin darn near cures anything.  Just make sure you use an airstone while the fish is in the dip.

Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]

I have not done a formalin yet, but I almost did after loosing the first one.  The second one seems to be slowly recovering.  very slowly.  I am wondering if liver disease was part of (wild hypothosis for anyone reading)...as i found out my wife was heavily feeding the bangs mysis, which she was not suppose to be doing.
 
We will see what happens as time goes on.

I am going to consider this trial complete.  The notion that you cannot keep a group together, I would call bust.  I have seen very little aggression, and much like is witnessed in a natural setting, the group keeps a pretty calm order.  I will be posting my opinions regarding the last year of effort, but for the time being, I think it is safe to say that groups can be kept, as long as there is enough space, hiding places and they are not introduced as paired adults.
 
two issues I hoped to research with this experiment are:
 
1) Keeping as group is impossible: I consider this completely bust
2) Babies cannot be raised with adults: I cant comment on this, and I am not sure if I agree that they cannot, but adequate cover needs to be provided if attempted.  i was not able (that I am aware of) to allow a batch to be brought to term, so this part of the experiement will have to be retried at some point.

Just providing an additional update for anyone who has been following.  I have not had time to pull down this tank, and the spawning has continued to occur.  I don't check on them too often, but of course quickly feed 2x a day.  Frozen food for all feedings.  They spawning is consistent, there is always at least one holding and I never observe any form of aggression.  We are still planning on tearing down this tank, but I want to ensure I provide updates for as long as it is up.
 
Water parameters are far from impressive in this system, as this system is still receiving the waste water from the reef.  The water comes down in pretty good shape, but the skimming and filtration on this system is sub par, so the nitrates are pretty high.  I have not attempted to see if the pairs are holding to term.  When we tear down the system I do hope to get the opportunity to work with the individual pairs.