Breeding Journal, Species: Orchid Dottyback (P fridmani) Pr 1

General
Species:  Pseudochromis fridmani, Orchid Dottyback.  Wild-caught as juveniles.
Social Structure:   Breeding pair.
Size of Individuals:   M - 2.5" SL, F - 2" SL.
Age of Individuals:   Age at purchase unknown.
Date added to Tank:  M - Nov 2010, 1" SL.  F - Feb 2011, 1" SL.

Broodstock Tank Details
Size of Tank:  40 gallon breeder. 36x18x16".
Substrate Details:  Live rock rubble, crush coral, large shells.  General chaos.
Filtration Details:  Just powerheads for water movement.
Water Changes:  Bi-weekly 20%.  Tap water with Prime.  Top off is RO/DI.
Water Temperature:  76-78F
Lighting:  Ambient sunlight and compact fluorescent.
Lighting Cycle:  8 am - 9 pm
Other Tank Inhabitants:  Lone male Banggai, 3 blue-leg hermits, one ring cowrie, 2 Astreae snails.

Broodstock Feeding Details
Food Types:  Frozen: Homemade (white shrimp, halibut, capelin roe, clam, squid, Selcon, Kent garlic), PE Mysis.  New Era Algae Flake.
Feeding Schedule:  2x times per day.

Spawning Details
Date of First Spawn:  Unknown.
Spawn Time of Day:  Unknown.
Dates of Consecutive Spawns: 
~ Sept 15, 2011.  This is a guesstimate as the spawn was not seen.  I just counted back 5 days from when the larvae hatched.
~ Sept 22, 2011 (I think...female appeared to slim down)
~ Sept 27, 2011 sometime between 11am and 4pm (I think...female appeared to slim down)
[didn't pay attention to their breeding efforts]
~ Nov 29, 2011.  Sometime before noon.
 
~ May 20 or 21, 2012.  Spawn with new female.  Possibly they have been spawning for a bit already and I haven't noticed.

Courtship Details:  Observed on Oct 4, 2011 the male swims up to the female's face, turns around and wiggles while slowly moving towards what I believe is his nesting site (haven't seen eggs there yet).  He goes about 6" away, then swims back to the female's face, and repeats.  Very cute.  He appears to be trying to convince her to follow him.
Egg Size:  1 mm.  Measured via a 40x loupe with 0.1 mm graduated markings.
Egg Color:  Clear with a clear dot.
Egg Count:   Haven't seen the entire egg ball.

Hatch Details
Hatch Date:  Sept 20, 2011.
Hatch Time of Day:  11 pm, 2 hours after lights out.
# Days after Spawn:  Unknown.
Larvae Description:  See pics.
Consecutive Hatch Date:
#2 Sept 27, 2011.  Sometime between 12am and 7:30am, spawn hatched 50 more larvae at 11 pm on 28th.
#3a Oct 9, 2011.  Hatching occurred from approximately 10 pm to 1 am (Oct 10). Collected ~150.
#3b Oct 11, 2011.  Continual hatching from 3a?  Hatching was already started at 8pm (lights still on).  Collected ~150.

Larval Tank Details
Temperature:  78F
Size of Larval Tank:  7 gallon BRT filled with about 3 gallons.
Substrate Details:  None
Other Tank Decor:  Heater, air stone.
Filtration Details:  None.
Lighting:  Room fluorescent, and ambient sunlight.
Lighting Cycle:  6:30 am - 11:30 pm
Water Changes:  Not yet.

Larval Feeding Details
Food Types:  Rotifers; plicatilis, L-type.  RotiGreen Omega for greenwater.
Feeding Schedule:  Loaded the tank Sept 20 to about 30 rots per mL, added more Sept 22 to about 60 rots per mL.  Rotifers are maintaining population.  NHBBS will be added on Sept 29 at 5 per mL.

Metamorphosis/Settlement
Date of Settlement Start: 
Days after Hatch: 
Date of Settlement End: 
Description of Fry: 

Grow-Out Tank Details
Temperature: 
Size of Grow-Out Tank: 
Substrate Details: 
Other Tank Decor: 
Filtration Details: 
Lighting: 
Lighting Cycle: 
Water Changes: 
Size at Transfer: 
Age at Transfer: 

Grow-Out Feeding Details
Food Types: 
Feeding Schedule: 

Additional Information
Courtship and spawning not observed.  The female was ripe with eggs one day, and the next day she appeared thinner and appeared a bit roughed up (mostly her sides, not her tail).  I think I know where the male was keeping the eggs, but it is not viewable.  Approx 5 days later I find approx 250 larvae in the trap.
 
I don't have a microscope, so no cool closeups from me!
 
Batch #3a:  Started in 9 gallon BRT with 8 gallons water.  First time using BRT with white acrylic installed in bottom.  Added enriched L-type rotifers (N-Rich PL Plus) at rate of about 30 per mL.  RotiGreen Omega used for greenwater to add just light tint to water, added 2-3 times per day.  Using 7.5 watt incandescent bulb indirectly lit 24/7.  Adding 1.5 mL AmQuel per day, monitoring with SeaChem Ammonia Alert for backup.
 
Batch #3b:  Trying something different.  I put this batch in a standard 5 gallon tank with the heater on one long pane near the bottom with the airstone under it.  Attempting unidirectional water flow.  Same steps with rotifers and lighting.
 
Batch 3a and 3b turned out to be hermit crab larvae!  Must look closer!  Ack!

Broodstock tank:

 
Larvae in trap:

 
Sieved rotifers:

 
Larval tank:

 
Larvae in tank:

Here is a photo from just a few minutes ago.  You can see most of the larvae in the photo.  I counted 80-90.  Looks like about 1/3 of what I collected from the larvae trap.  They have full bellies, so something must be going right.
 
I tested ammonia earlier today and found it to be 0.5 ppm using an API kit.  I had forgetton to add ammonia detoxifier, so I proceeded to add Prime and knocked it down to 0.25 ppm.  I added more Prime and need to retest soon.  I'm not sure if there is a MAX amount of Prime I can safely add.
 
I am going to do a small vacuum of the bottom of the tank right now, and drip some water back in for a mini water change.  I want to get the little dead bodies out of there before they break down too much.  I can't see any dead ones, but I know they are in there!
 
60 hours PH:

Sweet!

Thanks for following along Kathy!  I was looking at your fridmani journal as well.  Hopefully you get some larvae to work with soon.
 
My fridmani larvae are now 5 DPH (I count their hatch date of the 20th as 1 DPH right?), 84 hours PH.  There does not appear to be any losses since I started using Prime.  They sure have developed and grown a lot since they hatched.
 
I am trying to get a copepod culture going (have to find a source first) so that I can supplement before meta.  I have contacted our local large university for cultures.

Ammonia is the devil!  I lost a bunch more larvae today.  Ammonia sitting at 1 ppm.  I think I only have about 40 left now.  Ugh...I need some better ammonia fighting tactics.  I have been pretty hands off, so I think I need to get in there and do drip waterchanges, be on top of it with Prime.

The pair have been showing courtship behaviors yesterday and today.  The female is looking fairly round, so I expect more eggs in the next couple days.  So with any luck in a week I will have more larvae to work with.

Anytime you have a ton of bubbles hanging out at the top you have issues.

-Adam

Thanks for the hint Adam!  I haven't noticed any bubbles collecting at the edges or anything, but if the tank is low on phyto (I'm using RotiGreen Omega) the bubbles will take a little longer to pop, but they don't float to the edges or anything.
 
Today is 6 DPH.  I have been adding 1 mL Prime on every phyto addition now.  I am removing one liter of water (and rots to keep their population in check) and dripping 1 liter of fresh saltwater back in everyday.  I am also using a long eye dropper thingy to suck out any noticeable detritus/dead larvae.  I see maybe 5 dead larvae today, still have 30-40.  Once I figure out ammonia control I will be doing much better!  I have ClorAm-X on order...probably be a couple weeks before I get it.
 
I would be surprised if I get any of these guys through meta.  I'm going to start a culture of TiggerPods today.  I am told the larvae will accept these when they are a couple weeks old, but I haven't seen anything written about that...they seem rather large for the larvae.

what about ammo chips in a small lift tube? kinda like an egg tumbler but an ammo chip tumbler instead
 
can run you air stone below it to move the water over the ammo chips
 
just a thought for constant ammonia control

Do those ammo chips actually work?  I was under the impression that they aren't overly efficient.  The larvae are pretty fast and have some strong swimming spurts surprisingly so I think they would be able to stay away from a tumbler.  I will look into a design for this.   Thanks for your input! 

now im no chemist, and i don't even play one on the internet, but this stuff i have used in the past and have taken brand newly sat up tanks and added fry with no ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate ever detectable
 
http://www.thatpetplace.c...roup/10688/product.web
 
i also do not promote this company its just the closest real LFS to me so im familiar with thier products

Hmm, I forgot about Chemi-Pure.  That might be a decent avenue too.  I really only have to wait a couple weeks before I will have ClorAm-X, after that it should be smooth sailing.  I'm almost out of Prime, so I think I will pick up a jug of AmQuel to tide me over.
 
No eggs that I can see, but they sure are a flirty couple!  The female is getting pretty round.  People seem to say that Orchids spawn every 6-8 days, if that's the case I should have a hatch tonight or within the next couple days.  I might turn on the larvae trap tonight just in case.  The eggs hatch within an hour or two of dark (at least they did last time), so it's not a big deal to run the trap for a couple hours.  With only 30-40 larvae left from the first hatch I would hate to miss an opportunity to get more.
 
From what I understand Orchids tend to have "marital issues" especially the wild-caught fish, so having a breeding pair now doesn't seem to have much guarantee that they will still be getting along so well in 6 months or tomorrow for all that matters.  All the more reason to try to raise as many larvae as possible.  Plus, I have the space right now.

Collected another spawn this morning, slightly smaller than the last (~200?).  I think it is smaller simply because it was in the trap for several hours (I assume).  There was a Cowrie in there too, so it might have been snacking.  They hatched sometime after midnight, last time they hatched at 11 pm.  So they are about 6 days and a few hours between spawns.  The female is plump, and given the cycle they should be spawning today (or maybe tomorrow).
 
The other batch is 8 DPH.  I haven't checked on them this morning as I was distracted with the new hatch.  I just added greenwater so I can't see them very well.  I haven't lost any appreciable amount since I remembered to add ammonia detoxifier!

I think they spawned again today sometime between 11 am and 4 pm.  The female was round this morning, and now she is roughed up looking and slimmed down.  She just gets some marks on her sides, he doesn't beat her up too bad, no ripped tails or anything.

The hatch went over two days, I collected about 50 more larvae out of the trap at midnight lastnight.
 
I think I'm suddenly down to about 10 larvae from the 9 DPH batch.  Not sure what's going on there.  I'm going to start NHBBS tomorrow, not sure how I'm going to control the population of BS in the larvae tank...I will have to provide lots of NHBBS to get the density required for proper feeding, but that will mean there will be thousands in there that are growing too big for the larvae to eat them in just a short time...hmmmm.

Batch #1 and #2 are no more.    Made it to 12 DPH on the first batch and 9 DPH on the second batch (if I remember correctly).
 
Batch #3a Oct 9:  Started in 9 gallon BRT with 8 gallons water.  First time using BRT with white acrylic installed in bottom.  Added enriched L-type rotifers (N-Rich PL Plus) at rate of about 30 per mL.  RotiGreen Omega used for greenwater to add just light tint to water, added 2-3 times per day.  Using 7.5 watt incandescent bulb indirectly lit 24/7.  Adding 1.5 mL AmQuel per day, monitoring with SeaChem Ammonia Alert for backup.
 
Batch #3b Oct 11:  Trying something different.  I put this batch in a standard 5 gallon tank with the heater on one long pane near the bottom with the airstone under it.  Attempting unidirectional water flow.  Same steps with rotifers and lighting.
 
I did not setup the larvae collector on Oct 10.  The hatch must have gone over 3 nights...weird!

So I figured out why the hatch went over 3-4 nights...
 
I put my "Dotty" larvae under a microscope...and they are CRUSTACEANS!!!  Probably Hermit Crab larvae (see my other thread, "Am I a Hermit Crab Larva?").  There have been times where I thought the larvae looked different and some batches were much more phototactic which I put down to having a stronger batch or a weaker batch, but possibly because some were Dottys and some were Crabs..?  I will be keeping a closer eye on the larvae to find out if indeed I have been getting Dottys at some point!  Ugh...
 
If I can't find some REAL Dotty larvae in the next couple weeks I will be asking to remove my associated Hatch Report.

YES! 
 
I was walking by this tank this morning and I notice out of the corner of my eye something flapping in the water.  I think this might be algae (dangit, I should be doing more waterchanges on this tank) so I take a closer look...nope not algae!  These HAVE TO be Dottys eggs, please!  He must have had a wad get loose from his stash.  I collected these and tossed them into a brine shrimp hatchery with tank water and set the hatchery in the tank.  I don't expect them to hatch like this (not nearly sterile enough), but I'm so happy I finally have proof!  I tried to get them under my microscope, but it won't focus on them for some reason.  They are definitely fertile though, and I'm sure they were only a few hours old when I collected them.
 

 

 
Eggs on the left of the vessel:

I measured the eggs to be 1.0 mm with my 40x loupe that has 0.1 mm graduated markings on it.  I have handled these eggs so much, and disturbed them so much that I am surprised I still have them.  I removed two white eggs with a toothpick.  I also dumped all the water out of the hatchery and filled it back up with "new" saltwater from the tank.

Thats excellent.
 
When the eggs are laid are yours clear like the picture or milky in colour?
 
I was watching my female lay some a few days ago and they were cream/milky coloured (slightly yellow like milk from a cow not from a bottle )
 
She promptly took off with them still attached and I haven't seen them since, but its the third batch that I am aware of.

I'm hoping they will hatch so I know FOR SURE that they are Dottybacks.  These eggs are clear aside from a yolk in the middle that is fairly clear too. 

where does you male lay?  I am still battling to get my male to brood, and am wondering if its because I am providing a smooth surface for them to lay on.  It was actually Duck (Dale) who suggested that they may like something to attach the eggs to so they dont move as much, so I thought I would ask you
Thanks
Alex

Proud member of the first dedicated breeders site in the UK
Marine Fish Breeders Club - UK
H.Zosterae - 60 DPS

Well today the eggs still look good (a few white ones that I removed).  However, the egg ball has broken apart and the eggs are floating around singly for the most part.  I am thinking that there is some sort of decomposition going on that is causing the egg ball to lose its stickiness, so I imagine the eggs won't last much longer.  I'm going to pull one out and look under a loupe.  I will post pics if I can manage any.
 
Zimajays, I haven't seen the eggs in the cave yet, so I'm not 100% sure where he is laying them.  However, he does have "his" cave, and I assume they are in there.  The tank is full of small pieces of live rock, rock rubble, shells, crushed coral, and aragonite sand.  So it goes from real fine down at the bottom up to more coarse on the surface.  I had a trio of Jawfish in there for awhile and they dug tunnels all over the place in there.  One of those tunnels is where the male hangs out.  It is fairly deep, and I can't see in it very well.  I will try to get a pic for you.  From what I understand they don't lay "on" anything, but these eggs are definitely very sticky!
 
EDIT: I checked the eggs with my 100x and 40x loupe and there is clearly a fish larvae in the egg.  I can make out eyes developing, and a tail (that doesn't look like a crustacean! ha).  Optics are godawful in those loupes, so no way for a pic.  I can't seem to get my USB mini-microscope to focus properly.  What should I use for a background?  I have tried white and black plastics, but doesn't work well.  There are maybe 20 eggs that look good.  I siphoned out any that looked questionable.  I also dumped the water out of the hatchery and replaced with "new" tank water.
 
 
Here is the best I can do for pics of his cave.  The tank is only half full of water (about 6" of water) and dimly lit, so pics aren't too easy!  The hole goes down about 3".

 

I found this really cool photographic chart of Orchid Dottyback eggs:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/10/breeder
 
According to this graph, my eggs look like M (maybe pushing N) which makes the eggs about 34+ hours post spawn.

Thanks very helpful

Proud member of the first dedicated breeders site in the UK
Marine Fish Breeders Club - UK
H.Zosterae - 60 DPS

Wow, I have 6 larvae!  I can`t believe that egg tumbler (kinda) worked!  They are early though, so I wonder if the tumbler knocked them out of the eggs.  They are moving though.  I set up a 7 gallon BRT with 5 gallons in it.  My rotifers look funny though, some are floating...they look ok under loupe (active).  I got some pics, but no time for uploading right now.

Thats excellent, well done!!!

Thanks CaptCrash!
 
Can you guys see them? I can't get a decent pic on my microscope for the life of me!

 

Looking good.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Thanks Tal!  Comparing my larvae to larvae in your Orchid Dotty thread mine don't look as developed as yours.  I think it is probable that too high air flow knocked the larvae out of the eggs a day early.  Probably not a good prognosis for them!  I do still have ONE unhatched egg in the brine shrimp hatchery.  Don't give up yet!!!!  HAHA!

I think I lost my female.  I was messing around in the tank on the 23rd to remove the Banggai Cardinal and the pair of McCosker's Wrasses I was quarantining in there to put into my reef tank.  I haven't seen her since.  She's always been very, very shy though so maybe she is just upset and hiding.  That's a long time to not see her come out for food though.  I checked her favourite shells and she wasn't in any of them though.

I hope you find her. I hate losing anything!

RLTW

180 Gallon Mixed Reef

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8

thanks Glen, but I think she's a goner.  I am emptying the tank today, and haven't been able to find her.  Can't find a body though either and there aren't many scavengers in the tank.  There are a ton of hiding places in the tank though, so I'm worried that I might miss her.  Maybe I will leave the tank running for another week.

I had a neon goby end up popping out of  a rock that I searched and searched before. I hope you have luck finding it.

RLTW

180 Gallon Mixed Reef

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8

The rock in there is just small stuff...I put a few pieces in my live rock bin, and a few in the broodstock tanks.  I hope I didn't put her in the live rock bin!  The rock is so small though that I'm sure I would have heard her flopping around in it because I left it on the counter for 10 minutes first to listen for her.  Same with all the shells.

Well, I never did find her.  I purchased another small wild caught Orchid Dottyback February 20th and had her in quarantine for a week (she was in a small tank at the dealer's by herself for a couple months).  I moved her to a 20 gallon tank with my Perc pair (not breeding) in the broodstock system Feb 26th.  I moved the male over to her tank on March 4th.  They have been getting along well, no ripped fins.  This female is much more bold than the last female, I see her all the time.  I will make a new breeding journal on their first spawn and will post a link here.

Well, no action yet, but I want to post some pics of the new female because she looks gravid, and I don't want to jinx myself by creating a new journal for the new pair.  This female is very bold, she comes right up to the glass to beg for food like the clownfish do.  The male doesn't chase this one as much as he chased the old female.  He never did do any damage to the old female though, he is a good man.
 
Female:

 
Male:

 

Well, I found an egg mass from this new pair today (it could have been there yesterday), so I will make a new journal for them.  I have a feeling they have spawned already, and I just haven't seen the eggs.  They have been together and getting along for too long to not have spawned already.  Plus the female has appeared gravid on a few occasions.
 
Breeding journal with new female:  http://www.mbisite.org/Fo...1487&mpage=1#71487

beautiful pictures.  She sure does look gravid.

Thanks Kathy, I took those pics April 1st when I first noticed the female becoming gravid.  I took a lot of pics to get those decent ones.  Hehe