Amphiprion thiellei

That's the first time I can recall of someone saying to do it that way....
That recent incident scared the crap out of me. I can't help thinking something is egregiously wrong with the way I'm doing things and has forced me to look hard over and think about daily operations. It's a very dirty system overall and while it was a skimmer overflow that sent it over the edge, a lot of uneaten food tends to sit and rot. I'm thinking about going up to That Fish Place today and getting some bioballs to replace the rubbel rock currently in the tower in my sump and install a filter sock to catch what's coming off the drain. Though, it would probably be best to review some favorite reading materials and scour over your site and see what I can piece together as a more functional design concept. Here's the "tower" referenced earlier. It's a 12" PVC pipe.

Tal,
First off, thanks for your help and suggestions. I was looking at a thread with pics of your ocellaris (with a clutch) and noted that your fish spawned on the rough side of the tile... but it was on the inside of the triangle. I was under the impression that you were suggesting that they'd spawn on the exterior side of the diagonal tile. It hadn't occured that they usually spawn on the inside of flower pots. I think I get why you said that now.... I'm a little hard headed.

Yup, they spawn inside.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

They were cleaning for about an hour and a half before lights out last night. She even clicked. I can't recall the last time I heard that! I'm not changing anything else in the display for now.

I'm strongly considering getting larger tiles.  They were cleaning last night and looked a bit cramped inside.  I don't know if there's enough room in there to swim in a spiral.  These guys are as big as the largest ocellaris I've owned... and she was 14 at the time.  I don't know if clownfish think or not or if so, how but watching last night I was seeing the male doing some burnouts then biting the edge of the diagonal tile, then the female started doing some burnouts and started biting the same edge of the tile while clicking and doing burnouts.   Then she tried what looked like precision swimming inside the structure.  She tried doing a 360 several times before appearing frustrated then moved to cleaning the exposed glass on the rear of the tank that's adjacent to the tiles.  I don't know whether they're selecting a spot to lay and if so whether I should replace the tiles with something larger or leave them alone.  Maybe I'm seeing behaviors as pre-spawning behaviors because I want to see them???
It feels like a whole lot of hurry up and wait.  )

I have taken 5 minutes over the last three mornings to flood my broodstock tank with baby brine shrimp - per Joyce Wilkerson's instructions on stubborn spawners. Do I think I'll go home tonight to find a thiellei egg clutch? Well, I'm not gonna hold my breath but I might just do a precautionary water change.  ;-) I've also begun slowly lowering the SG.  It was high (rather not admit how much) but I'm shooting to get it around 1.023 possibly 1.021 if my 55 gallon makeup water container will allow.
I'm already at a 14 Hr photoperiod for the sole reason that I'm gone so many hours of the day that I might not otherwise get two manual feedings.
My temp in the sump is already set at 82, though the broodstock tank itself is 1.5-2 degrees lower.
 

Have you tried live black worms?  Matt Wittenrich suggests this in his book to trigger first time spawners.

Yes. Several times this week. They approached it rather non chalantly. Like everything else. I think they are spoiled. Food and detritus all collects in a ball infront of their cave. I've stood across the room and watched them. They pick at it food. It's hardly a ravenous approach but there's usually little or none left when I check at the next feeding.

I have found Peppermint shrimp to be great scavengers to help keep the broodstock tanks clean.  Each of my tanks has a pair of shrimp and an Astraea snail.

Updates:
Replaced the baserock in the tower with bioballs.




 
In other news....
 
I got a misbar ocellaris for the thiellei in the cup....

 
The ocellaris I got for her....

 
I also picked up Wittenrich's book last night.

Since the last update I have acquired another A. thiellei.  He arrived very stressed and had that glazed over look in his eyes like they get when things are about to go downhill fast.  On about the second day I dropped the SG to 1.009.  On or about day three he started showing signs of ick or amyloodinium.  I dosed coppersafe and started looking to address another issue; he had something white hanging down from his vent that looked like mucous.  It was also a good possibility that it might be rectal prolapse.  I raised the SG back up and dosed Maracyn Plus.
He started looking emaciated and hadn't eaten in about five days.  I was ready to throw in the towel.  I had tried Spectrum pellet, PE mysis, Rod's food and finally on about day 6 he ate Cyclopeeze.  I mixed up a batch of BBS and on day 7 he ate a single pellet.
He has gone steadily uphill since.  I had to leave town for four days.  On my return he was more emaciated than I remembered.  I dosed Prazipro to rule out/eliminate worms as a cause and resumed saturation feeding.  I have been able to confirm that he is a male by pairing him with a female ocellaris and observing.  He has also been adjacent to my established pair of thielleis and he does the submissive twitch any time he is confronted by a female.
 
I plan to pick up my female thiellei (thiellei#3) for pairing in April.  I plan to pair them the same way I paired the first pair.  Put them in adjacent tanks for a few weeks to a month and allow them to get used to one another's presence before introducing them to the same tank.

Today marks a week since I got back from four days on the NC coast to find him emaciated worse than I remembered.  It may have been a failure of my house sitters to follow my instructions on how to saturation feed my fish but I err'd on the side of caution and eliminated a factor by dosing Prazipro.  A week later he is looking much better and eats like a champ.
Here's a little preview of what I think will be a long, healthy life for this #4 (I'm yet to give him a name.)

He looks smaller in person but just for gits and shiggles, here's Penelope, the female of my established pair.
 

Brought thiellei #3 (female) home late last night.  She met #4 (male) this morning.  I think I might name #3 "Pandora" because I never know what to expect out of her.  She's still fiesty as ever.
They will remain separated but in full view of one another for at least a week.

No issues with the fish?  What size are your tanks?
 
UPDATE:
So far, the pairing process has not been too terribly rough but I'm less tolerant about letting a thiellei clown get injuries than I would be a common ocellaris or clarkii as it's kind of a bigger deal to replace him if he gets an infection.  Because they're in the dingy basement I simply don't want to be down there all bloody day.  I'm planning to put them together for a few hours at a time until I decide it's safe... or that it's just not going to work.
There was a difference between Saturday's interactions and Sunday's interactions in that Saturday was a lot more aggressive and (what I hope will be) the male was less retaliatory on Sunday.
He was fighting back a little on Saturday.  Not on Sunday.  He was not doing any 45 degree twitching Saturday.  He was twitching on Sunday fairly consistently.  I expected this level of difficulty as this is an extremely intolerant and aggressive female.  I would venture to say on the order of a marroon female.  As such, I'm using a similar "role reversal" method to that that Matt P. used during the pairing of the "Lightning Marroon."
 

 

The white stringy crap from the vent is more likely than not worms (internal).  Prazipro should take care of them, and the only bad thing I've had happen is it makes your skimmer go nuts for a couple days.  Reef safe as well (although watch your feather dusters, might lose some).
 
Keep plugging!

Thanks for the input.  I'm well past that stage at this point.  He's fat and healthy now.  I'm letting the female out for a few hours each day and playing it by ear.

Good to hear that all is well so far.

Do you mind if I ask where you found the mate for your female? Mine is doing well and has really started to plump up. I would love to find her a mate a start trying to breed them.

I'm not one to broadcast for a number of reasons... and even if I did, it probably wouldn't do you any good as the sources aren't necessarily reliable in terms of being able to locate the species over and over.  I've got four different fish from three different sources.

Stringy poop can also mean the fish are constipated.  Add more veggies to their food.  Or add veggie pellets.
 

 
Re: Peppermint shrimp.  My Darwins are aggressive and killed one of their Peppermint shrimp before I removed them.  My Clarkii, Percs, and normal Occys all play nice with the Peppermint shrimp.  My tanks are 10 gal, 15 gal, and 20 highs.

Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]

I'm collecting equipment for a large reef project.  They will have a very comfortable life by the end of the year.

moving them again?
i found that stability and not changing their environment is the best thing that you can do.

Yes.  I'm in the process of a 180 Philippine themed display build.  The thiellei x thiellei pair will go in this system.

 
I'm now getting cold feet as the project gets closer to fruition.  Being as rare as they are, I'm hesitant to put my best pair in a reef system where (despite quarrantine) anything could happen to them.
 
I'm wondering if the spawning probability given the more stable environment are worth the risk of illness.  My alternative is to put one of the thiellei x ocellaris pairs in the system.  I would love multiple opinions on this.

I need to move them one way or another because a ten gallon is not providing the stability that I think they need.  If they don't go into the reef, they'll probably make their way to a 20L that I have upstairs and it will become a FOWLR system for just them.  That would be a bit of a tragedy though since this whole system was designed with them in mind.  Granted I'd still have A. thiellei in there.  It just wouldn't be a pair.
 
Anyone else have any pros/cons for me to weigh?

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Thanks for the input.  Three of you thinking the same thing is good enough arguement for me.  Now I just need to decide which of the other two pairs would be best for a reef.

Yeah, when waiting for a pair to start spawning, it is good to have some other projects to focus on.  Have fun with the reef!

I have a stand for a 75.  Maybe that BTA anemone reef is still a plausible venture....

Walt, why is the 10 "not stable"???  I was spawning Black Ocellaris in a 6 gallon nanocube....

It's a 10 gallon BB tank with a Whisper EX45 Power filter.  I could provide better stability if such a tank were attached to a rack.  I'm presuming that your nano at least had substrate of some sort and possibly a skimmer.
 
At least with the 20L or a 75 I could use a HOB skimmer and a power filter along with substrate.  Kinda like Wilkerson's book suggests.

leave them where they are and let them be.  the 3 people that replied to you have stellar track records with getting fish to spawn.  i have 9 out of 21 pairs that are spawning and am looking for a mate for my thielle.  once i put the pair in there tank i would not think of moving them.  they may be stubborn spawners but i would not mess with them.  if you are looking for more stability add a bigger filter and maybe a tunze nano skimmer.

I will definately have one more move for at least two of the pairs once the new fish room is completed.  My hope is that the move is permanent.
My pair in my son's Spongebob tank has been doing a lot of cleaning and rearranging.  Whether this is a sign of things to come, I don't know.