Elysia Crispata

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Galilean
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Elysia Crispata - Friday, December 23, 2011 9:36 AM
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Is no one interested in breeding nutibranchs? Well this one is easy. I've observed 3rd generation Elysia Crispata obtained with very little effort in the right system. Unfourtunatly this was over 5 years ago and I dont have pictures so I can't make a proper journal. Here is the thread on the sea slug forum where I explained some of my results.
http://www.seaslugforum.net/find/17626
The seaslug experts questioned my identification (because of lack of a picture) but I am certain my slugs were Elysia crispata not clarki because their white spots (no chloroplast areas) remained as large distict spots as characteristic of crispata. On clarki the spots are small and much more numerous. The experts said "Unfortunately the food source for juveniles is unknown." but I know it!
 
These sea slug experts did not get a second generation of crispata, only the WC nutibranchs laid eggs. Perhaps this was because their water quality was not as good as mine and perhaps some chemical or lighting que was missing. They kept the nutibranchs in small bare tanks with lots of water changes and adding algae to
feed. Mine were in well established reef tanks with lots of coral, fish, and macro-algea. My tanks were controlled with custom designed (by me) ATS filters or macro-algea and required no water changes ever (for decades) so water quality was always perfect. (still have to add KI trace or frequent molting things like shrimps tend to die mid-molt and pulseing Xenia stop pulsing)
 
The tank size was not critical. Elysia crispata reproduced in 90 gal, 55 gal, and 24 gal (nanocube) systems. But having a gentle path to the sump for the larvae is critical. They went over an overflow to a sump where they settled in all 3 tanks. Larvae did not survive going back up through the pump and were eaten by the many filter feeders and fishes in the tank if they remained. They are lecithotrophic (non-feeding larvae) and pelagic for 5 days according to the experts. I did not specifically identify or seperate larvae, but I saw them hatch and swim out into the tank. Since they dont need to eat until they settle its easy you just have to provide the right algae and some of them will land on it.
 
Bryopsis is the favorite food of adults and juveniles did grow out eating it. However I got he best results raising juvenile crispata on cheatamorpha exclusively. The adults will eat pretty much any caleurpas also, but they dont get fat and lay eggs without bryopsis or cheatomorpha. They only choose to eay caleurpas after they are getting thin if they run out of tastier food. It is hard to tell how many larvae made it to settlement because they are about 1 mm long when they settle. But it looked like pretty much any that settled on the right aglae in the saftey of the sump grew out. Growth rates varied widely depending on if they got a good spot (close to the light) or not. They seem get most of their energy for growing from the chloroplasts they already stole rather than from sucking down more algea juice. One sump area had a CFL fixture stuck right to the side of the glass (velcro glued on) So the nutibrachs were about 1-2 cm from the bulb. This was a 28 W bulb with a split daylight/actinic spectrum. It was on 24/7. These guys grew the fastest, were adult size by 2 months and laid eggs a few weeks later. Others randomly living in the sump here or there or even a couple in the 55 gal tank also grew to adult size much slower (up to 6 months depending on conditions).
 
This was almost entirely a "hands-off" breeding success. The only exception being that eggs were moved from the 90 to the 55 and from the 55 to the 24 gal tanks. Adults didn't seem to live very long. Its hard to be certain about generations or individual lifespans because once you have hundreds of them they all look the same, but I bet adults did not live for more than 2 years. So like seahorses you really need to breed them to keep any long term. I know there were at least 3 generations because of the tank seperation but it could have easily been more. The population survived for at least 4 years until a couple house moves, power outages, and the back actually coming off the big 90 gal acrylic killed them off. (28 year old custom acrylic tank! beware weak looking weld seams on old systems!) Again I did not ever make a scientific count, but I would estimate that from a given hatch anywhere from 2 to 25 nutibranchs became adults. My Dad was able to move eggs successfully by razor blading them off the side of the tank into a specimen container. Egg location was usually high up on the glass in an area with strong but indirect flow. I dont recall ever counting eggs. I would guess something like 100-200 are layed.
 
Other details...all systems were full salt (1.026 salinity) Lighting for the adults was on an 8 hour day (full metal halide daytime was about 500 W/square meter) and 30 min (evening morning actincs only). Fish were all non-threatening to adults (tangs and angels). Though there were small mantid shrimps that concievably could have eaten adults and a big carpet anenome. But it didnt react if a nutibranch brushed up against it; maybe if one fell in it would have eaten it. They dont swim very well; they pretty much just float and wiggle.
 
I think thats all that is relevant. If you have any other questions I'll be happy to help. Good luck with your nutibranchs!

aomont
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Re:Elysia Crispata - Friday, December 23, 2011 1:49 PM
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I think this is amazing, even without pics !
Elisia species are very beautiful animals and it would awesome to see them growing. Not having to feed the young with hard to get/grow food is like a dream. Are you going to breed them again ?
Anderson.

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Re:Elysia Crispata - Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:37 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but sea slugs aren't actually nudibranch, are they?
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Re:Elysia Crispata - Wednesday, May 23, 2012 8:42 AM
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You're right, they are sacoglossans (Order Sacoglossa).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacoglossa
Anderson.

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Re:Elysia Crispata - Wednesday, May 23, 2012 12:41 PM
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Darn.  I was hoping there'd been a breeding breakthrough.
 
I've always liked the looks of Elysia Crispata.  It's rare that I see them.
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Re:Elysia Crispata - Wednesday, May 23, 2012 7:47 PM
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I'm excited to hear that you have had success with these with chaetomorpha as a food source. It would be nice to find a use for it as I throw out 5 gallon buckets full every couple of months. I have some bryopsis patches but not enough to keep a breeding colony of slugs going.
 
Question: Did you have amphipods in your system/slug growout containers? I've eventually lost most of my nudibranch cultures (berghia) to amphipods preying on the egg masses.
--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

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Re:Elysia Crispata - Monday, January 28, 2013 1:48 AM
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a friend of mine has one that is purple with yellow things on its head well it layed eggs and tomorrow we are going to razor them off so i can bring them home im going blind into this as im a clownfish breeder but this will be new for me and hope i can save some of the eggs i setup a 5.5 gal with a big chunk of live rock with some sponge on it and a glob of seaweed in it with a airstone in it with a tiny led light fixture over it running 24hrs will i have any luck with this or should i get a bigger tank or just put a filter that hangs on the back on it id like to be sucsefull at this and im sorry for the spelling im not a paper computer kinda guy haha

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Re:Elysia Crispata - Monday, January 28, 2013 2:08 AM
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All I can say is, start a Journal on them.  If you can manage to pull off a Class D inverterbrate, then I'm sure we will all want you to document your success so that others can learn from you.  Considering their long pelagic phase, I don't think the filter would be a very good idea.  Just my $0.02 worth.  Good luck with them, and please do keep us posted on how it goes.

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Re:Elysia Crispata - Monday, January 28, 2013 2:32 AM
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ok will do i pick up the eggs tomorow i might buy the adult so if i fail this time i can get a second try at it

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Re:Elysia Crispata - Monday, January 28, 2013 2:36 AM
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Quote Originally Posted by JC Clownfish

i might buy the adult so if i fail this time i can get a second try at it

You might consider buying two adults.  As far as I know, they do not exhibit parthenogenesis.  Just sayin.....
 

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Re:Elysia Crispata - Monday, January 28, 2013 2:37 AM
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im not very good with big words and all that stuff im just a redneck in this hobby what does pelagic phase mean? sorry if i didnt ask i wouldnt know and i googled it and it said nothing about it

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Re:Elysia Crispata - Monday, January 28, 2013 2:38 AM
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he only has 1 and it layed eggs so i hope there fertil

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Re:Elysia Crispata - Monday, January 28, 2013 2:59 AM
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I think that the reason this species has been assigned a classification of Class D, the most difficult class, is that the larvae go through an extended period as pelagic larvae.  The word "pelagic" basically means living up in the water column.  It means that the larvae are floating freely up in the water.  That implies many things, but one of them is that they are very susceptible to being sucked into any filtration system you might have.
 
My understanding is that nudibranches such as these need two individuals in order to reproduce.  They usually are able to act as both male and female, so you only need two, but one lone adult is generally unable to reproduce by itself.  Parthenogenesis is when a lone female can make babies all by itself, without a male, like what rotifers can do.  As far as I know, this species does not do the parthenogenesis thing.  That implies that your friend either must have another adult that he doesn't know is there, or something else is going on.  I hope that helps.

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Re:Elysia Crispata - Monday, January 28, 2013 12:52 PM
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While it's possible that some more-complicated animals can reproduce on their own, it's pretty darn unlikely. (There's a molly that reproduces this way and I've even heard reports of sheep: http://www.livestocklibrary.com.au/handle/1234/15172. That's in a lab but I've heard reports of it happening spontaneously.) You can see why: This type of reproduction severely limits genetic variability and makes animals that practice this type of reproduction susceptible to getting wiped out by the first nasty virus that targets them. Rotifers can get away with this because they practice sporadic sexual reproduction and especially because their cysts allow them to "time travel." That is, by storing their genes in a protected environment that has the potential to skip the species ahead by several generations, rots can essentially move their genes past threats to species survival. In other words, once a threat organism's population has completely crashed because their are no more live rots, new seeds of the species will emerge from their cyst stage to carry on. Way cool stuff.
 
I read a great book with a whole chapter on rots and parthenogenesis. If anyone's interested I can try to figure out which book it is.
--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

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Re:Elysia Crispata - Monday, January 28, 2013 10:56 PM
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thanks for all the info he sold the purple nudibranch but kept the eggs for me i used my brine sifter cup as the port where i can take water from so the babys dont get sucked up im useing an aqua lifter pump to suck the water from there tank and shooting it into the hang on the back filter going through filter media and carbon i think this is a good idea when i change water i put new salt water in a 5gal bucket on the shelf above and slowly drip it back in there tank im kinda proud of myself rite now i hope this works because being sucessful is important to me what do you think of this?

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Re:Elysia Crispata - Monday, January 28, 2013 11:44 PM
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Quote Originally Posted by JimWelsh

My understanding is that nudibranches such as these need two individuals in order to reproduce.  They usually are able to act as both male and female, so you only need two, but one lone adult is generally unable to reproduce by itself.  Parthenogenesis is when a lone female can make babies all by itself, without a male, like what rotifers can do.  As far as I know, this species does not do the parthenogenesis thing.  That implies that your friend either must have another adult that he doesn't know is there, or something else is going on.  I hope that helps.

Is it possible that they are like cleaner shrimp and store sperm for a few weeks/months.  Thus appearing to be a clone.

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Re:Elysia Crispata - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 12:09 AM
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Quote Originally Posted by GinaReef

Is it possible that they are like cleaner shrimp and store sperm for a few weeks/months.  Thus appearing to be a clone.

 
Perhaps.  I don't know.
 
I also just realized that although JC is posting in an Elysia crispata thread, he is talking about a purple and yellow nudibranch, so it doesn't sound like an Elysia at all.  So, without any images (and perhaps even with images) it is extremely difficult to know what species or even genus he is dealing with.
 
JC -- got any pictures?
 

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Re:Elysia Crispata - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 12:26 AM
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ya well when i dont have an adult to post pics of its kinda hard to do so and ya i dont know what im doing with these but it looks like fun to learn so im learning as i go i post my thoughts on here to learn and share what im doing not to get picked on and made fun of by a nerd ok thanks anyone besides jim have somthing possitive to say feel free thanks if it can be bread and raised in a tank i want to do it so i can say i did and help the next guy down the line that might have issues with it as dave did for me

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Re:Elysia Crispata - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 1:22 AM
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Keep at it JC!  I know I'm having a lot of fun learning to breed sexy shrimp, or Thor amboinensis, for those that like the big words.  It doesn't take a brainiac (I should know), just a little dedication, so long as you're always having fun.  Man, it took me weeks just to learn to spell "amboinensis" correctly.  Seriously, look at my old posts!  But I'll be two years into my breeding project come March, and I'm still having a really great time.
 
Also, I'm pretty sure Jim is just trying to help.  Sometimes us analytically types come off wrong (I should know).  Something about being in our own heads all the time.  But we really are all here to learn, help, and have fun.  Pretty sure. :]
 
*Apologizes to the OP for being off topic.
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Re:Elysia Crispata - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 1:24 AM
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JC, just because the adult was sold does not preclude the possibility that you may have taken a picture when you had the chance. It was a fair question.
 
Most nudibranchs are extremely selective, if not obligate, feeders.  That means that they only eat one very specific food.  Take Berghia as example.  They ONLY eat Aiptasia.  Period.  No discussion.  No Aiptasia, then they starve.
 
Without knowing what species or even genus of nudibranch you are working with, there is very little hope that anyone here can intelligently advise you.  Perhaps you can get responses more to your liking on the Sea Slug Forum, where people are specifically focused on these creatures:  http://www.seaslugforum.net/
 
Best of luck with them.
 
Nerd out.....
 

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Re:Elysia Crispata - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 3:11 AM
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im having fun to with 20 pairs of clowns everyday is so much fun and jim i didnt get a chance to my daughter was hungry an d whining at me haha but if u google purple nudibranch u will see it it has yellow tenticals on top which are its gills and the body is bright purple im getting two on friday then will post pics i hope i can do this they eat sponge but what type idk im still doing my homework on them but i read that when the sponge is gone they will eat the stringy seaweed not culerpa but they wont be healthy enof to spawn but we will try they are beautiful and i think i wont give up on this till i get it rite and sorry its been a long day i worked 13hrs today and im beat but my onyx perk eggs hatched so now i can go to bed after i put rotifers and a few drops of roto green omega in it

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Re:Elysia Crispata - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 9:24 PM
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thanks that site has alot of info

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Re:Elysia Crispata - Wednesday, May 28, 2014 3:25 AM
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still have to add KI trace or frequent molting things like shrimps tend to die mid-molt and pulseing Xenia stop pulsing)
<message edited by Fishtal on Friday, May 30, 2014 2:26 AM>

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Re:Elysia Crispata - Friday, May 30, 2014 1:59 AM
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These sea slug experts did not get a second generation of crispata, only the WC

<message edited by Fishtal on Friday, May 30, 2014 2:25 AM>