Waterchanges and nitrate in broodstock

So my brand new API nitrate test kit says I have somewhere around 60 ppm.  The well expired Salifert kit reads around 40 ppm.  Either way, I think it is too high.  So I have some questions for you guys...
 
Currently I am changing the filter sock 3 times per week.  There is about 2-3 gallons of bioballs in there that appear clean.  I have a EuroReef RS-180 skimmer that really doesn't pull much skimmate on this ~110 gallon system even though I have the air turned up full blast and the gate valve mod dialed back I just get some light tea colored skimmate...maybe 1 cup per week.  I wonder if it doesn't perform as well in the low salinity of 1.020?  I am doing 2x per week waterchanges of about 15 gallons.
 
So...do I need to do bigger waterchanges?  Increase salinity so skimmer works better?
 
What size waterchanges do you guys do?  What nitrate level do you like to keep under?

*looks around*  Anyone in here??

Do you have any live rock in the tank? If so it might take a while to lower the nitrates as they could be leaching from the rocks as you lower the levels in the water. This is just a idea for discussion but I wonder if the bioballs ( and live rock ) are breaking the wastes down to nitrates before your skimmer can remove them? Maybe plumb so that the skimmer output goes into the bioballs. Seems that a lot of people do it the other way around. In reef tanks really noone uses the balls anymore and refers to them as "nitrate factories". Also, Your water change levels sound good. Maybe you will need to do a couple larger ones to get ahead of the nitrates but it sounds like you have found the correct amount to keep the nitrates from continuing to rise.

Daniel, the nitrates seem to be rising still.  I was maintaining 25 ppm, but it is going up now.  There are some small pieces of rock in some of the tanks; maybe 15 lbs total, if that.  There is a skiff of sand in each tank too...maybe 2 lbs total.  I understand the "nitrate factory" aspect of the bioballs, and would never use them in my reef tank.  I am interested in your idea about putting the skimmer before the bioballs; that would take a lot of messing around in the sump to change it.
 
I forgot to mention that I do have a softball-sized ball of Chaeto in the sump as well lit with a 23 watt compact fluorescent 4100K spotlight bulb.  I have it tumbling.  It doesn't grow much.

Hum.. I need to check mine... like today to see what they are at. (Brood and growout)

-Adam

hmm interesting, a lfs by us uses the k1 media in both static and non static sections, claiming the staitic reduces no3 but i cant see how it does tbh
 
also i think your live rock will be out compeated over the first two stages of the nitrogen cycle by the bio balls so will struggle to reduce any no3,  but guessing thats not why its there
 
now coming from a reefing back ground and very new to breeding (ie not wet yet) i wonder why breediers seem to favor bio balls as surely the end product will be no3, which if that can be keept in check with waterchanges then great but if not??
 
why not use
deep sand bed or possible deep sand buckets
vodka dosing
bio pearls/ pellets
 
surly anything simple that will compleate the full nitrogen cycle and possible remove phosphates as well could only be a bonus

One of the reasons breeders like to use bioballs is because it converts ammonia to nitrate really fast, and breeding systems (particularly growout) tend to be overstocked and heavily fed, thus lots of ammonia (and resulting nitrate) to deal with.  Bioballs are also much more efficient given the space they take up.  Live rock is also not compatible with many medications, and can be a host for many troublesome critters (like hydroids).
 
With my experience also being in reefing (18 years) I know that it will take a lot of live rock to deal with the amount of food that goes into that system.  I have been considering vodka dosing though...and have wondered why people don't use some sort of denitrating bacteria-based system.

ATS, anybody?

That's a lot of space though...although I have been thinking about that as well since the Chaeto doesn't seem to be able to keep up in this type of system.

Enough live rock to filter the kind of nutrients we feed these grow out fish tanks would be outrageously expensive.  Each of 4 grow out tanks use about 6 times the food I used to feed my reef tank at each feeding, and each tank is fed 4 times a day.  Plastic is cheaper and more efficient.  Nitrates aren't harmful until they get to 200 or so.

I have NEVER performed a water change on either my broodstock or my growout.
 
Broodstock is 15 fish total with 12 adult clowns and 2 mandarins and one blue damsel. Big time over sized skimmer with LR and LS with a little Cheto.
 
Nitrates are between 5-10.
 
 
Grow out is ~500 fish right now at various stages. HUUUUGE skimmer and a little LR with K1 media.
 
Nitrates are between 10-20.
 
Kinda crazy, thought they'd be way higher.

-Adam

sorry what is ats?

ok so i think its clear that live rock is not ideal,  and bio balls etc work for a lot of people without issue.
 
is it coincendence that lots of people that have successfull reefs seem to report spawning fish? i know every fish that ive keept in pairs have spawned in my reefs,  clearly theve been feed less but have better water quality
 
now if we took a carbon dosing approach to breeding would this cause issues?  as far as im aware this system will not deal with ammonia / nitrite issues so if used alone they would not be enough and infact would possible need bio balls/ k1 to compleate the filtration,  so maybe they could just be an add on for people having no3/po4  issues

I had to ask too...ATS = algae turf scrubber. 
 
Adam, what the heck?!?!  How is that even possible?  Which skimmers are you using on what volume?  I have several other skimmers I could try on the broodstock system.  I have a EuroReef recirculating RC-250 or a Vertex IN-250.  I was keeping those for growout though.  I will see if I can get the EuroReef in the sump.  I'm really not getting a lot of skimmate out of the EuroReef RS-180 that's on there right now, so adding a bigger skimmer doesn't sound like the answer to me.  I'll see what I can do to put the skimmer before the bioballs.  Right now it is sock, bioballs, skimmer, Chaeto.  What order is everything in in your sump Adam?
 
Matt, I've also wondered what it is about the reef tank that makes fish breed so much easier than in the little bare glass boxes we put them in.  I was just talking about this with a friend yesterday as we also find that any fish kept in pairs will breed in the reef tank with a heck of a lot less food.  We figured it was likely the water quality, and maybe also the fact that the environment is more natural...?
 

 
What about inverts though?  I have all my Peppermint shrimp in this system as well as snails and hermits for janitors.  How do you know that nitrate isn't harmful until 200 ppm, and what defines "harmful"?  Even if it isn't harmful until 200 ppm it must still affect the fish at a much lower rate...?  Nitrate can help to trigger HLLE at much lower levels.

Apparently I can't read those stupid color matcher test kits in the dark.  I re-tested today in the sunshine and API is around 40 ppm and the long expired (by like 3 years) Salifert is around 10 ppm. 

1. I completely agree about the natural environment.  Fish in reef tanks are "fed " less by the human, but are probably fed more by the copepods that inhabit the live rock. I have not found that fish in reefs spawn more readily than fish in bare tanks.
 
2. The 200 ppm comes from a more experienced fish breeder. I frankly don't measure nitrates, and until today, have not had shrimp, so I'll be paying more attention starting today.

I think nitrate starts "affecting things" probably around 40 ppm when it comes to more sensitive things like attempting to breed fish, or house inverts, or?  I can't imagine keeping fish in 100+ ppm nitrate is any good for them.  I personally feel a guilty conscience that my fish are sitting in 40 ppm nitrate right now.  That makes me feel like I'm shaking a baby or something!  Heh...
 
So far, I'm like 10 to 0 for spawning in reefs vs bare tanks.  LOL!  I think that's just relative right now though. Hehe

I use bio pellets on all three of my systems.  One 11 tank system totaling 200ish gallons for broodstock and (2) 16 tank growout systems @ about 260 gallons each.  When I first tried the biopellets out it was on a new system with about (150) 1-1/4" fish in it.  I performed one water change in the system in 4 months and the nitrates were about 20ppm.  I thought that was good considering that the system evaporates about 3-5g a day and my nitrates are 10ppm out of the tap.  I also run live rock, big skimmers, and fluidized bed filters on the systems also.

In my grow out I run a SWC 250 Extreme, K1 Media and a small bag of bioballs that I could actually remove. I also have some LS and maybe 30lbs of LR. It is automatically top'ed off with RO water and I ran a 15W UV, but just bought a 40W which is in the mail.
 
The broodstock runs an ASM G4, Cheto, LR,LS, and a 15W UV.
 
I do "add" water when I deliver fish or something so I guess you could consider that a small water change, but we are only talking maybe 1-2Gals. out of a ~200G system.

-Adam

I think the biggest issue might be that your bioballs break down the waste to nitrate faster than it can be removed by rock/sand/bacteria.  In effect it is too efficient! If you're not getting enough growth from chaeto, try any other macro algae in addition to it.  I've found that a little macro algae in broodstock tanks doesn't hurt, and I just pull it out when it gets too be overwhelming.  An algae turf scrubber "lite" if you will.  
 
Granted I've never tested anything other than salinity in my broodstock tanks and use tap water, so I'm sure my nitrate must have been at least 50+.
 
When I can't get fish to spawn anymore, I'll worry about nitrates

Adam, my setup isn't much different than yours other than you use UV on broodstock and I don't.  Hmmm...
 
Arc, yeah I am pretty sure it is the bioballs causing nitrate, but something has to devour the ammonia...so?  I have a small amount of Caulerpa prolifera in one tank, but it died off in the other tanks.  There isn't much light over the tanks, just a single T8.  Should be enough for Caulerpa though.  I will try adding some Feather Caulerpa.

Do you have decent life in your broodstock?  I have tons of pods and hundreds if not thousands of worms under the rocks and tiles.

-Adam

Lots of pods, but I haven't seen any bristleworms or anything like that.  It could be that once the system is more established it will be able to deal with nutrients better...that's possibly what I'm seeing now.  I would have to look back in my records, but I think I set up the system in Nov or Dec...??
 
So many variables...hard to be sure of anything.  Haha!