Breeding Journal, Species: Pterapogon kauderni

General
Species:  Pterapogon kauderni
Social Structure:  Shoal (currently 8, reduced to 6, see misc info)
Size of Individuals:  varies but about 3", females are bulkier than males
Age of Individuals:  varies
Date added to Tank:  04/24/2012

Broodstock Tank Details
Size of Tank:  3x2x2
Substrate Details:  None
Filtration Details:  Skimmer, UV, Macro Algae, Live Rock, Carbon, GFO and ATS
Water Changes:  100L Fortnight
Water Temperature:  27C
Lighting:  120W LED Light 50/50 white/blue
Lighting Cycle:  7am to 7:45pm blue.  7:30am to 7:30pm white
Other Tank Inhabitants:  Oxycirrhites typus (Longnose Hawkfish)

Broodstock Feeding Details
Food Types:  Live Brine Shrimp, Frozen Brine Shrimp, Frozen Mysis Shrimp, New Life Spectrum pellets
Feeding Schedule:  Morning and Night.

Spawning Details
Date of First Spawn:  2/1/2013 (not recorded for 60 dps report) 
Spawn Time of Day:  Unknown
Dates of Consecutive Spawns:  1-2 times per month.  Settlement hatch 03/19/2014 spawn was not recorded.    
Courtship Details:  Unknown
Egg Size:  3-5mm in diameter at 2 1/2 weeks, unknown at spawn
Egg Color:  cream/grey at 2 1/2 weeks, unknown at spawn
Egg Count:  25-30 eggs

Hatch Details
Hatch Date:  2/20/2013 - 2/22/2013 (3/19/2014 for 60 dps report) 
Hatch Time of Day:  through out the day
# Days after Spawn:  20-22
Larvae Description:    miniature adults with large bellies.  Or alternately a ball with fins.
Consecutive Hatch Dates:      None as yet


Larval Tank Details
Temperature:  27c
Size of Larval Tank:  300mm x 300mm x 300mm
Substrate Details:  None
Other Tank Decor:  heater
Filtration Details:  Sponge filter
Lighting:  CF Globe
Lighting Cycle:  9am to 7pm
Water Changes:  As needed but a minimum of 25% per week

Larval Feeding Details
Food Types:  newly hatched BBS, supplemented with golden pearls also offering Cyclopeeze (rehydrate freeze dried)
Feeding Schedule:  continuous (new additions morning and night if required)

Metamorphosis/Settlement
Date of Settlement Start:  2/23/2013 (3/19/2014 for 60 dps report) 
Days after Hatch:  3-4 Days
Date of Settlement End:  2/24/2013 (3/19/2014 for 60 dps report) 
Description of Fry:  The fry have now fully absorbed the egg yolk and look like a small version of the adults. 

Grow-Out Tank Details
Temperature:  26C
Size of Grow-Out Tank:  L 600mm x W 200mm x 400mm
Substrate Details:  None
Other Tank Decor:  Heater
Filtration Details:  Sponge filter
Lighting:  CF Globe
Lighting Cycle:  8am to 8pm
Water Changes:  As needed but a minimum of 20L per week
Size at Transfer:  20mm
Age at Transfer:  75 days

Grow-Out Feeding Details
Food Types:  NHBBS, crushed NLS pellets
Feeding Schedule:  morning and night

Additional Information

(No Pictures or Videos in the Section Please)
Miscellaneous Information: 
2/17/2013 The tank size listed above is the tank that the male and female pair who were in a group of 8 fish together were in, not the tank they were being transferred to. They had been separating themselves for a couple of weeks and I figured I would separate them. The male spat out eggs into the net.   I looked at the male some more to see if he still had any more and ended up with a handful of eggs.

The eggs were artificially incubated for the last few days 2/17/2013 - 2/22/2013.
This involved putting the eggs into a glass conical flask (1000ml) filled with tank water.
This was then placed in a hatching tank, with a sponge filter, heater and a water pump.
The water level of the hatching tank is such that there is a 3-5mm fall from the lip of the flask to the tank.
The water pump has a long screened input pipe, to discourage input suction of fry (it is about 12" long).
The pump then is piped to the top of the flask and the water directed into the flask, so that the eggs are in continuous motion.  They are not really tumbling, just moving.
The pump also has a bypass tap, so that the water flow into the flask can be tuned to a low enough setting.
  I'm using a 500L/h pump, feeding two separate flasks of eggs, plus the bypass valve.

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Good luck.

Picked up another pair tonight that have been breeding but eating the eggs.  Hopefully with some alone time rather than being in a reef tank, they can get to it.

 
It looks like the male is holding eggs.
His jaw seems fatter than usual, a little puffy in the cheeks (best way I can describe it).
He is also not got his mouth fully closed.  It sort of looks like he has a fat lip.
He did not eat tonight, but he did this morning I think.
 
My understanding is that he has previously been holding for 3-4 days then eating them but was in a community tank.  The pair are in a quarantine tank with a pair of b/w occys.
 
For those who have dont it, how do you get him to spit them out?
Is day 2 or 3 too soon?

Male did not eat this morning or tonight.
He swam to the back of the tank when I was feeding.  The female and the two clowns all ate.
I havent been able to see eggs yet, but it seems like he has something in there.

That sounds like typical holding behavior to me.  He must have a small mouthful because it is usually very obvious that he has his mouth full.  They gill plates will be flared out, and under their jaw.  Look in my breeding journal for a pic if you want.
 
I'm in a worse boat than you, my male won't hold longer than about 36 hours.  I just pulled a batch from his mouth yesterday that they spawned yesterday.  I didn't give him any time to mess up.  Haha!  However, success with artificial incubation of Bangaii Cardinal eggs is really poor, and the "younger" the eggs are the worse it is.  Egg development changes with temperature, so the eggs will take 21-25 days to hatch (this length of time is probably why AI is so difficult), and the babies will be born as larvae like clownfish.  They don't take long to settle though (I think just a few days, but I can't remember for sure).  I've had a lot of AI attempts result in babies with swim bladder issues, and I'm not sure what the problem was there.  I found that the earlier I pulled the eggs the slower the juveniles developed.  If I pulled the already settled fry at 25 days they were very robust and developed much faster than if I pulled the larvae at 21 days and waited for them to settle.  Maybe if my setup had been more appropriate for larval fish the development would have been par, I'm not sure.   I've heard that the addition of Formalin to the egg tumbler will increase the development rate, but I'm not sure on dosage or long-term effect.
 
If I were you, I would let the male hold the eggs for 3 batches and see how he does.  He's just settling into a new home, and as time goes by he may get better.  If you can get him to hold for 2-3 weeks you're laughing as the babies are quite easy to raise from about 21 days and on, and AI is much more successful if you can at least get a couple weeks out of him.

I got a quick glimpse of what I think was eggs in his mouth this morning as he was moving his jaw around and puffing out his cheeks.
He changed his behavior at the morning feeding, for the last few days he swam away from the food to the back of the tank.  This morning, he was swimming with the female whilst she was eating.
 
Tonight, he was eating, so he held eggs for 5 days.

One of my males is carying and has a very big mouthful.  It looks like he has a dislocated jaw its so puffed up.  This is is a tank with eight Banggai's.
 
Also I was given some one day old fry tonight, so I now have 12 fry to raise and practice with.

 

congrats!!! love the lil guys!  Rearranging my tanks to get cruising too.

Those little guys are so cute! I want some!

-Adam

The are really good fun to just watch.  They are so different to clown larvae.
Its really weird in a fun way, they are exactly like the adults just in a mini size, but they are sort of uncoordinated with their movements.
 
The funniest part is when the lights go out, they sink to the bottom of the tank and just rest on the bottom with the occasional bob.
 
I was worried about this behaviour last night, but they did the same thing tonight, so im hoping that its normal.
 
I have a lot of NHBBS in with them and they have big round bellies already which is good.

Any new updates?

Over a period of about 6-8 weeks I lost all of the batch of fry.
I would find one dead on the bottom in the morning, then a couple of days later another one.  This went on over a couple of weeks.
I even separated them into two batches in case it was aggression (but none of them were damaged).  Finally, the last one went.
 
I had no luck getting them to eat anything other than baby brine shrimp.  Occasionally they would take a pellet, but spit it back out.
 
I expect that nutrition was probably the issue.

On happier news I now have a batch of eggs in a tumbler as a male spat them out when he was being moved to a new tank.  In total there are about 25-30 eggs.
I have them in an flask with water being pumped into tumble/move them around.  The eggs are about 2 1/2 weeks old, with big eyes.
 

They are starting to flutter about.  Its really odd seeing an egg with a fin(s).
 
I think Im going to be a daddy!

Well, they seem to be developing ok.
 
I have about 12 that are out of the flask now, with another 15 or so still to leave the flask/start swimming.
5 of these are laying on the bottom
7 are swimming around
All of them spent the first few hours laying on the bottom, once out of the flask.  Then after resting start to swim around.
 
well enough delay, on with the pic

 
I was going to wait for 24-48 hours before offering NHBBS to give them time to use up some of the egg sack and allow the others time to hatch.
 
If they had gone full term with the male, Im guessing that they would be a few days from being released.
 
Does anyone think I should feed sooner or wait longer?

Congrats!!!  You could add a very small amount of NHBBS and see if they go for them or not.  I think no harm done.  NHBBS have a long way to grow to outgrow the size of a Banggai's mouth, they just become much less nutritious. 
 
The trick to getting them from NHBBS to frozen Cyclopeeze is to start young!  Start offering frozen Cyclopeeze mixed with the NHBBS on day 3 or 4.  As soon as they start crowding the front of the tank waiting for food they are ready to get weaned.  Feed them just a tiny bit of the mix at a time so that they continue to gulp food blindly (baby Banggai are very aggressive feeders) so they will eat the Cyclopeeze without looking. Slowly phase out the NHBBS.  With this method you should get them weaned off NHBBS by 10 or 12 days maximum.  Any longer than that and it seems they never get weaned.
 
HTH. 

Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]

cool, thanks for that.  It was my next worry.

Well, the count is 23 swimming (2 were dead on the bottom) around eating brine shrimp as fast as they can find them.  Looks like 3 more to go and the batch is complete.
They have massive egg sacks still, and are barely a fish yet but that is not stopping them from eating everything that moves.

I told you they are aggressive feeders!  Hahahaha!!!  Can you buy frozen Cyclopeeze in AU?

Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]

I'm not sure about frozen. I have seen the freeze dried tins I'm fairly sure.
It's on my list of things to do in the morning.

Is the freeze dried any good or should I focus on the frozen?

Freeze dried is good but frozen is better, IMO. Freeze dried likes to float and you want to get it into the water column.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

After talking to a few stores today, it looks like frozen cyclop-eeze is not avaliable in Australia, just the freeze dried tins.
Other manufactorers ship cyclop's in frozen form.  Though it is unclear if this is the same thing (its cream/yellow in colour from memory not orange) and is a fresh water sourced food, rather than cyclop-eeze which is salt water from my understanding.
 
If I use the freeze dried, would soaking it first in RO water, be a good idea.  Then it may sink better?
edit: had the sources listed backwards re salt and fresh water.

You can do that and then use a turkey baster to squirt it into the water column. You can also take a small pinch with your fingers and put them under water. If you sprinkle it on top it pretty much just floats there.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Thanks Tal

FWIW, I do the same pinch thing with TDO A.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

we cant get TDO here , I keep asking the importer when they will bring in the Reeds foods and they are "working on it".  Comming up on 2 years now.

Images for reports
 
Parents

Im fairly certain that the one on top is the male.  In the photo they look similar sized, but the male is smaller in the body that the female and has a longer top fin (dorsal fin?)
 
The fry and now absorbed the remainder of their eggs and I think I can call them settled.
This pic has about 18 that hang out in one group.  Another four hang out together and there is a loan explorer that gets around the tank.

The pic is a but gunky as its taken through a large amount of brine shrimp in the tank.
edit: there is about 20 in the pic.

Oh man. That is a might cute picture of the babies.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

These guys are going great guns so far.  I dont think I have lost a single one (knock on wood) since the day they hatched.
 
They have taken to the freeze dried Cyclop-eeze and will take it from the surface which is great.  Im also giving them some crushed pellets and some frozen roe.  They get this mixture morning and night.
 
Im still giving them NHBBS every 3-4 days and to make sure that they are all eating well. but I think Ill stop doing so in about a week.
 

I finally managed to get a group of these guys to 60 days post settlement.
 
For some reason, with previous batches they would start to die at about 30ish days post hatch so I sort of gave up on the pair.
 
However they continued to breed well and I thought I would have another go.
Here is the picture for the 60 days post settlement (actually its 75 days hatched/released from the male March 19th, 2014, but close enough).
There are six in this batch remaining, as I had a bit of an issue part way through with unplugging the heater for about a week and these were the only ones that made it through (28 hatched, 3 died within 48 hours, 19 died with heater problem at day 40). 
 

Stay up to date with my breeding efforts:
Regal Tang RegalTangBreeding
Mccullochi Clownfish MccullochiClownfishBreeding 

Great job. I love watching these little guys grow up! Add another icon to your list!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ken

 
Yup these guys took me such a long time.  But at least now its something other than a clown that I have got all the way through with reports.
Ironically, I have another two batches of these going, one of 30 and one 35.  A friend locally has just had his male release a clutch of 75, so my 65 from two batches seems very small.
 
Now to work on more shrimps and dottybacks and get those little buggers done.

Stay up to date with my breeding efforts:
Regal Tang RegalTangBreeding
Mccullochi Clownfish MccullochiClownfishBreeding 

Well today was a big day, a friend decided that he wanted to sell his group of breeding Banggai Cardinalfish and his juveniles. He breeds clams and was finding it too difficult to keep up with the fish breeding as well.

So I went around and collected the fish.

The net result is that I now have a massive group of Banggai Cardinalfish (39 adults), these were all in one large tank.
I have separated the group into three tanks with 10, 10 and 19 fish in each tank and will see how they do. I may look to setup a couple of 4' tanks I have with a large bulkhead joiner, to give extra room and put the group back together.

I also picked up his grow out fish, this included

Banggai Cardinalfish
73 fish at 3cm (just over 1")
57 fish at 2cm (just under 1")
104 at around 1cm (under 1/2")

Occy x Perc cross
240 between 1-2cm

So I consider it a really good day. I'll post some photos tomorrow once they have all settled in and the lights are on.

With any luck I can continue on from his success and breed 100's of the little buggers as well.

Stay up to date with my breeding efforts:
Regal Tang RegalTangBreeding
Mccullochi Clownfish MccullochiClownfishBreeding 

Wow, what a load!! I had enough trouble keeping up with my one breeding pair of banggai's, but I only had one grow out tank for their offspring. You should be set with broodstock!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ken

I have been following Acro Al and his Banggai, (and Clam) breeding project for some time. I also have a large tank with a large group of breeding Banggai. Be cautious putting them in smaller systems as they tend to pick each other off until there is only one pair remaining. Good Luck with them!!!