Banggai Rescue Breeder "All Call" - looking for collaborators

Well my wine glass setup is working like a charm from a tumbling standpoint  If you had but one "treatment" to try in terms of egg preservation (to prevent bacterial and fungal attacks) what would it be?
 
1.  Methelyne Blue
2.  Formalin
3.  Hydrogen Peroxide
4.  Something else?
 

I don't have a lot of experience in doing this but I'd lean toward H2O2.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

I don't think H2O2 stays in the water, does it?  I'm pretty sure it off-gases.  I have been having good luck using H2O2 for egg baths just before hatching for Clownfish eggs though.  I think formalin works best for longer-term use, but I hesitate to use it very often because if it is carcinogenic to me, then it really can't be good for the larvae.  So that leaves methylene blue which I use all the time.  Can't say I've had any luck tumbling eggs though...although I've not tried the wine glass tumbler yet.  I'm still trying to convince the males to hold their dang eggs!
 
Matt, how old are the eggs when you start tumbling them?  Have you been able to get really young eggs (like a few days post spawn) to hatch?

Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]

The several times I tumbled eggs I didn't disinfect them and had no problems. 

 
First pair just the two. Second and third pairs came from a group of 7. Current pair came from a group of 4. 


About the same for both. Roughly 40%


 
Roughly 20 gallons. I have a lot of calupera in the current system and the fish seem much calmer than I remember others being. 


 
I think all of this is in the article. I stripped the eggs pretty early on and tumbled them in a shot glass tilted. 

 
H202 is an oxidizer...it raises ORP among other things.  My hunch is that in some respects, while definitely oversimplyfying things, you could think of it like a liquid version of Ozone (O3).  So basically, once H202 has oxidized whatever it does, what's left is behind is water.
 

 
The best I've ever heard of is 3 days, and unless I misread my notes, mine were pulled at 4.  What I'd love to do is to have eggs pulled at <1 make it.
 
Rich, how soon post-spawn were your eggs harvested.  I KNOW it can be done if the eggs spend some time with Dad, generally speaking the longer the better.  So I always ask - if you pulled on Day 0, that would be a new record.

Technically, there is no day 0 is there?  My understanding of the lingo is the day of spawn is considered 1 dps, right?  If not I've recorded all my breeding info incorrectly!
 
Jeez, success at day 4, eh?  This is very exciting.  Sounds like I need to get on this tumbler.  What are you using for flow in the wine glass?

Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]

 
Water flow is provided by a Sicce Micro Pump that has two sections of vinyl air tubing jammed into the outflow.  One of those tubes has a Two Little Fishies micro valve inline that allows me to adjust the flow rate (think of the other tube as the pressure bleed).  From there, it's just fed down into the glass, rigid tubing at the end, and clamped on with a plastic clamp to keep it in place.  Not that much different than the original tall vase concept I first had success with years ago, but I think the red wine glass shape allows for the flow to diffuse more quickly as the diameter widens, whereas a tall straight vase meant a consistent flow rate from bottom to top...slightly more likely you could blow the eggs out of the top if you set things up incorrectly.
 

I have a ton of mouth brooding cichlids that i strip constantly and i have found that the best overall medication for tumbling eggs is nitrofuracin green.
 
It prevents fungus with great success rates.
 
Here is a link to where i get it from http://www.aquabid.com/cg...cations&1346278805

I will also contribute to this as i will be keeping them in the near future.
 
The bonus is that i will be a fresh start up system with nothing imported other then the fish

 
I used to run a Cichlid hatchery  Just a heads up, it's really important that you not waste your time trying the traditional air-driven cichlid style tumbler.  The problem is that Cardinalfish eggs are on one big mass all stuck together, not individual eggs.  They physics of tumbling are different, and thus, traditional cichlid tumblers seem prone to failure.
 
Matt

I use an upwelling style tumbler that i developed a few years back. I think it will work for the raspberry style of egg bundle as well.
 
Perhaps i should send you one to test as i am no where near using one as of yet.
 
i think i got a thread somewhere i did i can C&P here on making them
 
I will have to go a searching

based on extensive reading on bangs and pjs...I will be working with blue.  already did one trial run on PJs (was out of town and ran to see if it increased longevity from attempt).. and the signs were positive...got 2 days more time before the eggs died (that is 20%).
 
While I have not had much issue with keeping Bangs holding under good conditions, I have with PJs...so while it may not directly associate, the attempts I will be doing in the comming months may assit your research.

Hey Matt,  once that I ave noticed with the now two spawning pairs of banggai that I have experience with is that I have used Hicari mysis with them.  The last pair it only took a month to get them to spawn.   Don't know if this is any coincidence or not but thought I would share.

Just a thought from reading your post Matt but is there a way to separate the eggs and then tumble?  Even if able to be done, I realize likely not easy but it would be a way to change the experiment. I only got one spawn from my old pair and never was able to see the eggs (first-hand inspection is always eye opening to me) so feel free to let me know if you laughed yourself out of your chair. 
 

 
Any shots?  I've come up with a few variations over the years that seem to work well...upwelling with water is certainly the way to go.

 
I can say now that I had a run go almost to full term with Methelyne Blue...but I had a second NOT fair so well.  MB seems promising...

 
By "separate the eggs", do you mean to separate them into individual free tumbling eggs, or do you simply mean to remove them from the Male's mouth for artificial incubation?  If the former...no.  If the later, yes.  I succeedd in artificial incubation years ago, but the big problem seems to be in pulling them too early.  Obviously a problem if the fish won't hold to term, but most breeders discover a routine and then preemptively pull on the day prior to scheduled "disappearance".  Upwelling, water-drive tumblers are proven.  The longer you can wait, the higher your odds for success go.

I did intend it as physically separate them into individual eggs prior to tumbling. I know the success people are having with AI but was trying to think of ideas to get past the "too early" barrier. From a commercial perspective each day you wait is lost production and efficiency, i.e., money! I was imagining low level magnification or a dissecting microscope and applicable tooling to be able to separate the eggs. As mentioned though, I have never seen an egg mass in person to get a feel for the dynamic properties of the mass. It would take much patience that I do know though! I would have to watch Karate Kid at least twice before trying it.

I am considering my group experiment complete, so I will be setting up several pairs, so, assuming work allows, I will dedicate at least two pairs to trying to do artificial. 
 
First need to get transfered and comfortable.