Need Some Help-Fry Keep Dying on Day 3

So with my first breeding pair, an onyc perc with ocellaris male, I tried 2 clutches.  Of the 2 I have one surivivor over 60 DPH.  All of the other fry died on day 3.  So, I recently tried a batch of full ocellaris, had over 200 hatch on Sunday night.  When I got home from work yesterday, I planned on adding a gallong of parent water to the tank, but was shocked to see only 10 fry left swimming, the rest were dead.  I vacuumed them out and did a slow drip adding a mix of 1 gallon new, 1 gallon parent water.  This morning the 10 were still alive.
 
I've been feeding the ocellaris brood pair originally just Formula 2 pellets, but just switched to Thera A as it has higher protein rating.  I feed the rots Rotigrow Complete twice a day as well as tint the fry water with it.  The rot density in the fry tank was thick.  Is there such thing as too thick, or was it the Rotigrow Complete?  This has happened 3 times now.  Mitch May thinks it's caused by tinting the water and feeding the rots with the Complete.  Any thoughts?  I'm at a loss and getting really disheartened.  Thank you.

There are a few things that catch my eye.

1. I feed a much more varied diet. Wide variety of mostly frozen foods.
2. How often do you feed your broodstock?
3. I agree that RGC isn't formulated to be used for greenwater.
4. Check your heater and air flow.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

What is your oxygen situation in the larval tank?  Sponge filter? Airstone?
 
Something to try - take a couple pieces of smaller (golfball size or there abouts) live rock and stick it in the larval tub/tank.  If it is an ammonia issue (Have you tested Ammonia?) the rock/bacteria will help a bit - I'm willing to guess it is a combination of low oxygen (From rots/waste from rotigrow) and ammonia if it is happening over night.
 
 

Thanks guys.  I have a pretty good airflow, or so I thought, maybe I'll kick it up a notch as I am using an airstone.  I use the Ammonia Aler badges, which I know aren't 100% accurate, and drip some Prime everye couple of days or so.  Temps stay at 79.9 - 80.3 F.  I was thinking of adding some rubble pieces.  I have a sponge seasoning in the parent tank that I was going to add right after meta...might not have to if none make it.
Mitch May said was useless tinting the fry tank, what are your guys' thoughts?

Tinting as in greenwater tinting?  I'm all for it with Live Phyto.  I've used frozen phyto (thawed of course) but I ended up doing huge amounts of water changes because of the waste.
 
 Now I just cheat with clowns:
 
Get half a million rots, put in black round tub, let clowns hatch,  feed live phyto for three or four days, then just use TDO/Othimie dry food.  About every 3-4 days I'll put A.tonsa copepods in for larva to eat.  On day two I'll put in 5000 or so Tisbe pods (they are detrivores which will help function as a clean up crew) and they have free swimming stages.
 
After that its a small (10%) water change every couple of days.

Wow!  That's an awesome idea!  What seems to be the trouble with the RG Complete?  I've talked to others using RG+ with no problem, but all seem to not like the Complete.

I'm in the same boat as you, my first attempt just failed.  After reading Hoff's book I'm thinking my mistake was using broodstock water for the hatching/larvae tank which is high in nitrate.  Live phyto for greenwater is also a good idea.  You have to tint the water to feed the rotifers otherwise the rotifers will starve, and starving rotifers are not nutritious.

Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]

Over at N-R.com, they think my rot density in my fry tank is too high, choking the fry out for oxygen.

How high is the rot density? Shouldn't be more than 15 per ml.
I use RGcomplete with great success as greenwater and as rotifer food/enrichment.  It works great, but you can't use too much! Just a cloudy green tint.
You do have to feed the rotifers in the larval tank, or the larvae won't have nutrition.
 
 
ON formula 2 is a fine feed, but for clownfish, formula 1 is better. It was made for clownfish. ON formula 1 frozen is even better.

check out Kathy's Clowns, llc website:
http://kathysclowns.com
Captive bred clownfish and more
(Wholesale to the trade.)

You can use roti grow for greenwater but it is not reccomended.  You should either be using roti green or live phyto.  You need to tint the larval water especially during the first few days but should as long as you are feeding rotifers as the phyto is the food for the rotifers and if they are not fed then they lose their nutritional value. 
 
I disagree about using broodstock water,  broodstock water is all I use as the first water source when the eggs/larva are transferred.  I use fresh saltwater for all water changes but intially broodstock water is used.
 
If you are using an airstone to aerate the water I do not believe that the rotifer density is causing the problem. 


Now for some questions:
1:  what type of tank are you using for the larva?
2:  what type of lighting are you using and what lighting cycle?
3:  how often are you feeding your broodstock?  I would agree with Tal
that a varied diet is better and feeding at least twice a day or more.
 
Who is Mitch May??  In my 4+ years of raising clownfish I have never heard of someone saying to not tint the larval water.
 

Kathy, I was hoping you would chime in, thank you! 
 
It was way higher than 15/mL!!  I'm now feeding the broodstock NLS Thera A.  I was looking at the Formula 1 with the higher protein. 
 
Well, it is a learning process I guess.  Sucks I killed so many.  Good news, there's a new ocellaris clutch laid today.  Now if I could just get my onyx perc x ocellaris pair to spawn with some type of regularity...
 
Thank you all so much!

1. 10 gallon tanks, with bottom painted white, 3 sides painted flat black.
2. Just a regular clip lamp, on constantly.
3. Feed 3 times a day
 
Mitch May is part of Booyah's Reef. 

Make sure you are still blacking out the front of the tank with either black plastic or something else unless you need to look thru the front.  If I remember correctly I think it was Tal that just put plastic on the front and lifted it up if he needed to.  10g tanks are all I use for my larva so you should be good there.  IMO the rotifer density is not the issue.   I like Kathy's target of 15/ml but they can be run at higher densities just not necessary.  Where are the larva when they are still alive.  Top, middle, or bottom of the water column and are they out swimming freely or towards the sides?

I have some vinyl tank backing i taped on the front.  The larvae are all over, some at the surface, others visibly hunting, some on the sides and a lot skipping along the bottom.

Thank you, you have just answered what may be your biggest problem and you may not have even known it yet   When you say that a lot of them are skipping along the bottom is a key answer.  That can typicall be caused by a couple of items.  One is to intense of light over the tank.  Tinting the water will help with this as the ones that are skipping along the bottom are trying to get away from the light and exhausting themselves and typically will die.  Tinting the water will do a couple of things, first feed the rotifers, second darkens the water slightly and also gives contrast to the rotifers for the larval fish to feed on.  Without tinting your water it is difficult to say if the intensity is too much.  On the next batch start by lightly tinting the water and watch the larva.  If they consistantly are swimming on the bottom then there is still too much light.  One thing you can do is clip your light to one end of the tank.  This allows the larva to swim from end to end and establish where they want to be in regards to light.  One thing I do for my larval clowns is to use a 10g incadescent hood from petco or petsmart.  These hoods have 2 lamps in them.  I start with (1) 15w incadescent bulb for the first 2 days and then on day 3 I add the second bulb.  This allows them to decide where they want to be and also blocks out any ambient light from the room.

I'll try tinting darker.  I nearly bought those hoods from Petco just the other day for that same reason, and thought might help with evap a bit.  I'll pick a couple up this weekend as there is a Petco just a few blocks from me.  I really appreciate everyone's feedback.
 
Kathy, so no problems tinting the fry tank with the RG Complete, then?

I think it was John Hardman who busted the myth that one needs to black out the sides for clownfish.  I haven't got a painted tank in use, and I've raised thousands of clownfish.
Other species, perhaps, but not clownfish.
Mitch May is a really experienced clownfish breeder, but I doubt he really meant that it is a mistake to tint the water.  
 
You can't keep the rotifers full and nutritious without tinting the water, and as mentioned above, it helps the larvae see the food.  Really.
 
All of them dying on Day 3 in the presence of lots of rotifers tells me that the larvae are weak, and aren't learning to hunt and eat.  If so, the parents should be fed more and with some variety, as Tal mentioned.  That 's where I would start first and foremost.
 
Good luck, and keep at it.  You'll get there.
 

check out Kathy's Clowns, llc website:
http://kathysclowns.com
Captive bred clownfish and more
(Wholesale to the trade.)

WestOhooligan just PM'd me to ask if there are any ill effects of using RGcomplete to tint the water. 
 
In my experience, no. none. I am careful not to use too much, and I always have an airstone to keep the water moving and the surface broken.  RGcomplete is a little oily, and you need to make sure you have enough water/air exposure, or the oxygen levels will be depleted.  Live phyto is probably the best stuff to use for green water, and I highly recommend it, but with care, RGcomplete works for me.

check out Kathy's Clowns, llc website:
http://kathysclowns.com
Captive bred clownfish and more
(Wholesale to the trade.)

I agree Kathy as I have raised 1000's of babies on the RGcomplete.  After multiple discussions online and with Reed Mariculture I switched to Roti Green for the larval greenwater.  I realize that it is not live phyto but it doesn't present the same problems that could occur with Roti Grow complete.  The Roti Green does provide more nutrition than just plain nano.

Even though I'm one to break the rules at times I haven't used RotiGrow/RGC for greenwater applications. I know it can be used in some cases and I would use it in an emergency but I wouldn't use it on a regular basis.
 
RotiGreen is specifically formulated for use in greenwater applications. RotiGrow/RGC is not. RotiGreen works great for all the species I've worked with and is much easier to deal with than and more cost effective than live phyto.  

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

So, I'll be putting in an order for RGC to feed my cultures and some RotiGreen today.  Thanks again.

Well, based off of your suggestions; I have a package of RG Complete and RotiGrow Nanno arriving today...just in time for my Ocellaris hatch, which could be tonight or tomorrow.  I have been feeding the Ocellaris with Thera A pellets and Formula 1 pellets this time around.  I'll update my journal when they hatch.  Thanks again everyone, much appreciated.

I like Ocean Nutrition Formula One frozen for broodstock when I'm not feeding them my homemade frozen mash.

check out Kathy's Clowns, llc website:
http://kathysclowns.com
Captive bred clownfish and more
(Wholesale to the trade.)

So, here we are on day 3 of my new clutch, and guess what?  NO DEATHS!!!  Using the RotiGreen Nanno, less rots, and more air and they're all still alive and kicking.  The thing I noticed when doing this is the amount of increased fry activity over previous attempts.  Couldn't have done it without you guys.  Much appreciated!

Glad you have found some answers!  Maybe I can learn from you. 
 

 
Just wondering, what do each of these larvae actions mean?  Good to know about the strong light causing the larvae to skip along the bottom!  I notice in the mornings when my greenwater is exhausted the larvae tend to swim towards the sides, and I've wondered why they do this.  As soon as I add more greenwater they all start swimming around again.

Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]

Went to feed this morning and they are getting big, today is 4 DPH, and they're starting to show a little interest in the TDO A, can't tell it they're actually eating it, but they are "investigating" it.
 
The 4 survivors from the last hatch are past meta, showing 2 stripes, except for one.  No stripes at all that I can see.  Could be a late bloomer?

Glad to see they are doing better this time around.  Sounds like you are on the right track.  Just one thing to consider,  after you use up your rotigreen nanno take a look at the rotigreen omega.  It is still used for greenwater but is balanced DHA/EPA with ARA.  This may not mean a lot in respect to clownfish but nutritionally IMO it is superior to just the rotigreen nanno and may help in development of other species if you venture beyond clowns.  I have been using the rotigreen omega for a while now and while I don't know that I can say I have noticed a huge difference I know the additional ingredients are keeping the rotifers enriched better than just nanno.

I use the roti grow plus. I changed from plain nano to the rgplus and have had no problems since. I have raised and continue to raise hundreds using this product and only this product