Please help me with new Banggai Cardinalish "pair"

Hi everyone. 

I am new to this outstanding group "MBI", and as fascinated with your work I am, the more motivation I have.
I use to keep and breed African cichlids for years, and I am fairly new to marine tanks.
At this point I have one 16G tank with two Amphiprion ocellaris, and one 16G tank with two Pterapogon kauderni.
My initial idea was to get "Cardinals" from two different sources, in order to create better genetics for new fry.
I guess that this way, new fry would be much more resilient on the long run, with healthy and beautiful base.
So, I have managed to get one fish at first, and this fish was luckily eating well frozen brine from the start.
I have managed to get (sadly just one) another fish two weeks later from other source.
Both fishes are around 1", and when I have acclimate and introduced new fish to my first fish in tank, resident fish started to dart at newcomer after a hour or so.
I have reacted instantly, and I have relocated both fishes to "neutral zone", into 16G tank with "Clownes".
Since than, both fishes eat well frozen brine, and tolerate each other very well.
I didn't saw any kind of aggression for three days in new tank, neither while feeding.

So, I would be grateful if you can help me out here with suggestions regarding determination of sexes maybe.
Also, after how many days I should return both fishes to their own 16G tank?
How can I determine Male/Female, Male/Male, Female/Female trough my observations?

This photo that could help regarding sex determination.



Thank you very much in advance for your help.

Best regards,
Peter 

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And another one.
 



 

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First off, what fish are going after your Cardinalfish? Generally to get rid of aggression in a tank, move the decorations and rock around to take away any territories that have developed. 
For sexing the Cardinalfish, as far as I know, the Male has a more pronounced jawline upon maturity, and the female has a less developed jawline. that is the only way that I know to sex them.

Thank you very much for posting in this thread.
Sorry if I wasn't clear before regarding aggression issue. 
First Cardinalfish that was alone in tank for two weeks, darts at new Cardinalfish that is arrived.
Two "Cardinals" was alone in that tank at the time, and now they are in new tank with two "Clownes", and there is no agression what so ever. 

Only clue I have at this point is that second fish at the bottom of this photo have much bigger eyes, than first fish.
 

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EasterEggs has a good thread on how to sex them.

-Adam

Thanks Adam, I saw this thread, but I am unable to feed them enough at this moment, in order to observe their vents.
That's why I am trying to find any other alternative method. 
Maybe something regarding behavior? 

 
This way is much better method than any other I have seen imo.  When my male isn't holding eggs, I can't tell them apart except for this method.

Ok, I have feed them up really good, and it's like two little balloons flying around my tank.
I can see maybe two vents on both of them, but I am not so sure.

Nevertheless, there is NO aggression at all, and both fishes remain together at all times.
They eat very well, and there is no sign of stress, or any aggressive behavior at all.
 
And now something interesting:
- When both fishes approach each other, both of them inflate their lower buccal cavities.

Is this sure thing that those two are in fact both males?

Thank you.

Anyone have any experience with both fishes "puffing their lower jaw" at the same time?

Thanks a lot in advance. 

It could be courtship of aggression...so of no real help.  That said, aggressive puffing is usually followed by overt aggression...so you could be seeing some early courtship.

All the scientific literature, presumably deriving from morphological measurements, has concluded that there is no sexual dimorphism in this species, at least nothing we can point to in terms of jaw shape, fin length etc.  The venting method that EasterEggs published here has been traced back as far as 2004, put forth by Wolfgang Mai.  That said, it is still not viable on young fish, and it's very subtle, since technically both sexes have two papillae.  I *think* in mature fish, this method may be reliable...eg. helpful in pairing random adults potentially.  But certainly not 100%...I tried it and failed to get successful pairings on more than one occasion, so either my eyes suck, the venting is 100% accurate, or I simply found male female pairs that didn't like each other.

 
Thank you very much, you were of great help.

Ok, here is a little update on those two Banggais.
I am writing this here because it may help somebody else in the future.
Yesterday, one of the fishes started to present open mouth to other fish, along with inflated buccal cavity from both fishes.
Time will tell if this fish is male that initiates courtship with female, or just want to scare other male fish off.
So far, any kind of aggression is not seen, and both fishes swim together at all times. 
This could be promising. 

Matt, I think you meant:
 

-Adam

I have four pairs going at present, and three of the four pairs have spawned (although no babies yet). So I'm certainly no expert, but here is what I have observed-
 
I see gill flaring occassionally in these fish that have spawned together when the fish are "excited"- for example, when they get a lot of food that they like, or I do a water change. I've also seen it as a sign of aggression, for example in cardinals of the same sex.
 
If I put together a group of juveniles, they get along great. But as soon as one of them matures they will start spending time away from the group and on their own. Once a pair of them matures they will chase all the other fish away. It's usually observable over the course of about 3 days. Once a pair forms out of a group, by day 3 they've fully staked a claim to most of the tank. This will be obvious because you'll see a pair swimming in the vicinity of one another and the rest of the fish hanging out up in the corners and crevices.
 
If I put together two of the same sex, the smaller one will either be harassed constantly or hiding out in the corners or crevices. They spend most of their time at opposite ends of the tank.
 
So my personal belief is that if you have two fish and they swim together and they are not fighting then you have either a pair or two juveniles. I've only been keeping them for about 5 months but that's the behaviour that I have witnessed thus far.

Thank you Joel very very much.
This observation from your side is greatly appreciated.
I have tried to find a right answer searching trough posts and literature online, but without luck regarding Cardinal behavior beside the spawning part. Those posts can be included in one later text about Banggai Cardinal behavior,  as a good guide for future members of this online comunity.

Thank you.

One other observation that I meant to mention, since you had mentioned feeding responses and putting them in with other fish (the clowns)-
 
I've noticed when they have a little competition for food with other tankmates that they will feed much better and are MUCH less shy. My three currently spawning pairs are in bare tanks and are very sensitive to any movement outside of the tank, and eat at their own pace.
 
However, the latest pair that I have formed I put into a community tank with substrate, a couple of corals, two wrasses and a pair of mandarins. They eat heartily and when I move around the tank they couldn't care less. They seem much more secure in that environment. I'm hoping that this pair may be more productive than the bare tank pairs but it's too early to know yet.

Yes Joel, my observation is very close to your experience.
That's why I tend to keep my fishes in separate 16 G tanks for each pair, along with plenty of live rock for hiding, and with softies for Phosphate removing. 
I know that it will be a pain to remove eggs/fry, but I would like to try and naturally induce spawning with close to perfect surroundings.
Plenty of hiding places, acceptable chemistry, and without any other fishes inside.
I will report how this work on the long run, trough my posts here.

I lucked out with my first Banggai pair. I got two juveniles that happened to be a m/f pair. I housed them in a 10G tank for a while before moving them down to the sump which was full of live rock and macro. It was kind of a pain getting the male out when it was time for him to spit the juveniles but it was a nice, calm environment for them.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Ok, now I have another problem.
One of the Banggais refuse to eat, have dark coloration and white feces, while swimming in low section of tank .
There is no any sign of aggression in this tank at all.
Anyone have any kind of solution for this problem? 

Thank you in advance. 

Little sick one sadly died.
I was searching for possible solution and treatment online, but without luck. 
I just hope that I will be able to find a mate for my lonely one Banggai soon.