Starting from scratch

Hi guys,
I just wanted to get some quick feedback from people with more experience than myself regarding breeding ages and sizes. I've obviously done my homework on it all and I've even raised clown larvae before but I've never bred clowns from a pair that I got as babies.

I estimate my current pair's age at around 10 months and I got them as very small juvies. To be honest, I don't even think they've totally sorted everything out yet. They still squabble especially during feedings, but sleep together and are hosted in my mushroom garden together. In the past when I raised larvae, they came from adults that I purchased as an established pair or at least from pairs I created from mature adults. Essentially I've never tried creating my own mated pair from equally sized, immature fish and I have no idea how long I should expect it all to take.

This pair was probably a month or two old when I got them about 9 months ago. They are right around an inch and a half to an inch and three quarters right now and there is only a tiny size difference in favor of one of the two. I've read that they usually won't spawn until at least a year old but does this mean that they take a year to complete the pair bond or a year to mature to spawning size? I've seen males spawn at this size; not females, but I'd say both are large enough to be considered 'matured males' if one were to view them out of context, if that makes sense.

What do you guys think? I'm excited to raise larvae from this pair because, in a sense, this will be a first for me.

Thanks in advance,
Joe

What species?

I dont know of any clownfish that will spawn at 12 months old. (Maybe in the wild if anywhere, but I even doubt it then) Some will start sooner and some later, but the general idea is 2-3 years in captivity before spawns.

-Adam

You'd think with alllll that typing I did in the first post, I would have remembered to include that they are ocellaris clownfish an orange and a Darwin lol To be honest though, the orange one looks to me to be A. percula judging by its dorsal but its incredibly unlikely since it came from a tank full of captive bred ocellaris at my store and what are the odds of a captive bred perc getting mixed in like that?

When you say 2-3 years in captivity before spawns, how much of that time is spent actually creating that first pair bond, where one fish actually becomes female? Like I said, they still squabble a lot and neither one really shows submission, they just tiff then go back to their bobbing up and down business.

You mention that the two fish are "equally" sized... that may be a bit problematic if you're trying to create a pair unless one of them has already started the transition or is more dominant already. In general, two clownfish that are the same size will tend to grow at the same rate.
 
From your size description I'd say they may be a bit older than your estimate. If you got them from a breeder they were probably closer to 4-5 months when you got them unless they were really small.
 
Once one of them has transitioned to female the other will become a functioning male pretty quickly, even if he's still young or small. 1.5 years is probably the soonest you can reasonably expect anything to happen. The transition to female takes longer than the transition to functioning male. Good luck and post some pics.  

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

I have some mediocre pics of them but I'll get some better ones tomorrow when the lights all come on.

When I bought them they were well under an inch each and now they are just shy of 2" with the Darwin being a little closer. My age estimate was only based on that, so I suppose I could be a bit off. I do feed them a lot though but either way, I'd say that based on the timelines you guys have given, they aren't old enough for at least several more months.

Regarding their size relative to one another, the Darwin is now and has always been ever so slightly larger and usually starts and finishes the skirmishes. Neither fish is obviously submissive to the other but at the time they don't really leave each others side and always sleep together.

Where does it sound like they are in the whole process?

It's easier to get a pair when you start with two fish that have an obvious size difference. That being said, just keep an eye on them and see what happens. If the Darwin starts growing faster that will be a good sign that it's starting the transition.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

As a side note... don't be too concerned with a small male. I lost my male Darwin and replaced it with one of CableGuy/Adam's small juveniles and it only took a couple of months for him to get into the groove. I'm raising offspring form the pair now. Adam can chime in with an age for the fish I got from him to give you an idea.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

The unsexed fish I gave you was about ~6 months old IIRC. (~1.25-1.5")
 
I know your female bet him up and he, as you said has became a good look boy looking after the eggs.

-Adam

So what you are implying here is that once they can come to an agreement on who will be the woman of the house, things progress quickly.

Also, it was mentioned that pairing is difficult when starting with similarly sized individuals. By difficult do you mean that it may not work out or simply that the process is very prolonged? I am up in the air trying to decide whether or not these two even appear to be pairing. I suppose I'm having trouble determining anything because I haven't paired them like this before but from what I can tell they do look somewhat bonded, since they sleep together every night. Usually unpaired fish will swim together during the day and sleep separated at night.

In my experience, which isn't all that, I've found pairing two clownfish of the same size to be pretty tough. Drawing on clownfish biology, all juveniles are non-functional males until one becomes dominant and transitions to female. The second'most dominant fish becomes a functional male. When you place two fish of similar size together the sexual/environmental cues aren't there and they just co-exist together rather than taking on sexually active roles. Not to say what you're doing won't produce a "pair", it's just unlikely. Big clown + little clown = pair.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

While we're talking about this, I'd like to only slightly derail the thread to ask about Clarks.  I've often heard it said that the large female / small male thing is frequently reversed with Clarks.  Anyone who knows what they're talking about care to comment?  If I want to create a "pair" of Clarks, what is the best strategy?  Still big + small, but expect clown sex role reversal, or what?

Good to know. I'm currently trying to pair up two A. tricinctus, Clarkii family, and I'm seeing the usual clownfish dynamic. I haven't gotten to the spawn point yet so I can't be sure what will happen.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

FWIW I haven't personally dealt with the Clarkii complex but I do have coworkers who do and what I've noticed is that the size difference between mated pairs in this group is significantly less dramatic than in other amphiprion or premnas. I haven't ever asked about actually pairing them though.



Is there anything I can do or a stimulus I can create that will increase the likelihood of a successful pairing in these two fish?