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Flame Angelfish Info
Wednesday, October 30, 2013 2:03 PM
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My next (probably) long-term project is going to be to work with Flame Angelfish. I have a 50-gallon 36x18x18" tank planned for the Angels with no substrate, and currently own what I think is a male from some (questionable?) sexing info I've come across. My research so far suggests 18" should be plenty of space for a spawning rise. For that matter, Matt P had C. argi spawning in a BioCube with sand I think. So I should be ok. Any thoughts on this??
Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]
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Re:Flame Angelfish Info
Wednesday, October 30, 2013 2:22 PM
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From what I have learned from Flame Angels, as I am planning on working on them shortly, they are born female, and when one get's very big, it turns into a male. I believe that 18 inches should be enough for the mating rise. Good luck with them!
No matter how many times you have failed, it is always worth it to succeed.
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Re:Flame Angelfish Info
Wednesday, October 30, 2013 4:15 PM
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I've had decent luck with 55 gallon drums (30" rise) for the brood pairs. Four out of five of my flame angel pairs are laying eggs. They seemed to start laying within a month after being introduced to these 55 gallon drums. Oceanic Institute's research suggests that a larger size tank will improve egg volume. The Ocean Institute tanks are about 260gallons each. Starting out with lots of larvae is nice. I'm having some success in rearing the larvae in a tank similar in size and shape to yours. I have one remaining larvae in a 29 gallon (30x 18x 12) at 22days old, as of today. I'm feeding Algagen's Parvocalanus copepods. I'm feeding the copepods Isochrysis and Chaetoceros sp., also from Algagen. Hope this Helps. Good Luck Peter
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Re:Flame Angelfish Info
Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:04 PM
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Thank you for the great info guys! I'm happy to hear there are others on this same adventure. James, I have come across this same info as well about the sex changing, although I came to the conclusion that the sex change happens at a small size. My understanding was the typical size we see at LFS has already gone through sex change. It seems there is also fuzzy information about whether any female can become a male (when hierarchy dictates) or if the fish go from "sexless" to "male" or "female" and once that male or female determination has been made if it is then absolute. Have you come across any of this information? Regardless, I have one large one, and intend to find the smallest one possible to attempt pairing. Hi Peter, First, congratulations on your success at raising a Flame to 22 dph! That is an accomplishment. How have you been pairing up your fish? Do you know anything about any sex changing? I wonder if the size of the tank isn't so much the concern, but the height of the tank? Maybe they can spawn just fine in shallower tanks, but with a deeper tank the spawning rise is longer allowing more eggs and sperm to be released. I could probably swap the 50-gallon for a 65-gallon and then have 24" depth instead of 18". I would rather use a 50...of course. I also plan to use Parvocalanus and will experiment with different feeding/gut loading options for the copepods. I would like to get a hold of some Apocyclops panamensis to use as well. I believe Apocyclops N1 nauplii are 90-100 microns where Parvocalanus are around 80 microns...? I'm not sure if offering two species of copepods rather than one would present any sort of advantage.
Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]
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Re:Flame Angelfish Info
Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:41 PM
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I do believe, in what I have found, that they are sexless, and though I do not know if the change is permanent, I believe that it happens as long as there are two of them, and there is a size difference between them.
No matter how many times you have failed, it is always worth it to succeed.
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Re:Flame Angelfish Info
Saturday, November 2, 2013 9:44 AM
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Ok, thank you.
Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]
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Re:Flame Angelfish Info
Saturday, November 2, 2013 4:58 PM
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Here's a not so high quality video of some parvocalanus for size reference. The Microscope field is about 1850µm across if you want to use a ruler. Based on this I found that the body of the nauplii are about 40µm across but about 100µm with their legs spread out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj4XbFJPNJk As far as sex change, I think I remember a SeaScope article back in the mid 90s that mentioned that a certain angel fish could reveres it's sex in both directions. I started with medium sized fish and found that they would pair up 80% of the time when I mixed the smallest I had with the largest I had. I think Baensch has some info on matching them up in a rubbermade bin, on his website. Good luck
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Re:Flame Angelfish Info
Saturday, November 2, 2013 5:46 PM
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It is my experience that small flames are juveniles and not yet sexually mature and are typically about a year old. They used to be caught in the grass flats in Hawaii in large numbers but now I understand that most flames come from a non-U.S. island. After passing through their juvenile stage I believe that they are all female and will stay that way the rest of their life until an opening or opportunity comes up within the harem, such as the dominant harem male dying off or disappearing. Then typically the largest female then changes sex in just a few weeks into a male. Even though angels are taken from the harem during capture and transport, it is my guess that they typically don't all "turn male" during the relatively few weeks of capture. I think most of the decent sized ones will still be female when you see them at the pet store, although the largest are likely males. I don't know how long they need to be isolated until they change into males. I don't know if flames have ability to change back from male to female although it has been reported among a few dwarf angelfish species. I tend to doubt it, but would be happy to be proven wrong. Regarding tank height, 18" is probably adequate but in my opinion a much deeper tank is better. The drive to procreate is very strong but we need to help these little fish by not restricting the height of their spawning rush. My own (unfinished) tank is probably overkill at 37" but I think it is better to err on the side of caution. Also, Oceanic Instituted found an increase in their eqq quantity and quality with large tanks, up to 500 gallons as I recall. I'e heard of two theories here. One theory is that, without doubt, the best way to culture larvae begins with high quality eggs that come from happy and well fed parents with adequate living space in high quality water. But the opposite theory also appears to be true, that angels in small tanks (with adequate height) will spawn better if they have limited room and limited distractions. So I hear that angelfish breeders have been successful with 55 gallon drums divided into two vertical halves, without live rock or much tank decoration. Which theory you follow depends on you, and they have a lot in common. We hobbyists tend to have tanks smaller than 500 gallons so we are probably forced to use the second theory. Then again the sex drive is so strong that it would tend to overcome many obstacles. Put two mature fish together and we'd be surprised at the lengths they will go to spawn. Regarding the parvocalanus copepods, that is what the Hawaii folks found to work as a first food, but once the copepod nauplii get to a certain size they escape predation by the angelfish larvae. Congratulations to anyone who has gotten larvae to 22 days, it proves you have overcome the obstacle of an appropriate second food after the parvocalanus. Or you have provided parvo in such density that some vulnerable nauplii have been available to your baby fish. I hope that helps, and keep up the good work.
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Re:Flame Angelfish Info
Saturday, November 2, 2013 10:41 PM
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Thank you Pete and Dave - I feel more confident in pairing. It sounds like pairing and egg production are the easy parts. Dave, I think I'm going to stick with my 18" high 50-gallon plan for now. It fits into my breeding room much better for now, and I have limited space. If the need arises I could use a place with more vertical space, but it wouldn't fit in with the scheme as well. I do my best work when things like maintenance are streamlined and I can focus my efforts (and frustration haha) on better things. Looks like I need to get Isochrysis and Parvocalanus cultures going. One step at a time...
Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]
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Re:Flame Angelfish Info
Saturday, November 2, 2013 10:47 PM
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Re:Flame Angelfish Info
Saturday, November 2, 2013 11:07 PM
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IMO, looking for coloration differences isn't all that accurate as their are natural variations in the patterning of flame angelfish (barring is different at almost each location they are caught, amount of red/orange, blue on the dorsal and anal fins, etc.). To form a pair it will work out with putting a large and small fish together. Not much different than pairing most other hermaphroditic species (dottybacks, clowns, wrasses, etc.). The success rate should be pretty high. An 18" high aquarium should be high enough for a successful rise, but from my understanding, a higher rise typically yields better spawns. Raising the larvae is the tricky part, but with my talks with Frank B. at RCT (known for their success with angelfish) feeding them oithona and parvocalanus copepods should give you some success. While I'm not going to work with flame angels right now, I do have a pair of multibar angels coming next week that have gotten along for 3 weeks in Rhinelander, WI. Hoping this pair proves to be true with spawning for me in the future.
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Re:Flame Angelfish Info
Sunday, November 3, 2013 1:53 AM
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Easter Eggs, it is very possible that they will spawn in an 18" high tank and I understand the competition for space and aesthetics in everyone's living room. However I never tried them in a 50 gallon tank and think that you are pushing the lower limit on a fish that needs more depth. Perhaps others on the forum here have had spawning success in a 50, I'd be glad to hear about their experiences.
Originally Posted by EasterEggs
Thank you Pete and Dave - I feel more confident in pairing. It sounds like pairing and egg production are the easy parts. Dave, I think I'm going to stick with my 18" high 50-gallon plan for now. It fits into my breeding room much better for now, and I have limited space. If the need arises I could use a place with more vertical space, but it wouldn't fit in with the scheme as well. I do my best work when things like maintenance are streamlined and I can focus my efforts (and frustration haha) on better things. Looks like I need to get Isochrysis and Parvocalanus cultures going. One step at a time...
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Re:Flame Angelfish Info
Sunday, November 3, 2013 1:58 AM
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kthomas, the multibar are some of my favorite angels and I envy you in getting a pair. I hear that when they are happy they tend to hang upside down just as if they are on the roof of a cave in the wild. That would be a lot of fun to see in any tank. The multibar are in the same family as the flames, as should be obvious by their color pattern. just for fun i will put some together in tanks and see if cross breeding occurs. My chances of success are probably one in a million but it will be fun to try!
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Re:Flame Angelfish Info
Sunday, November 3, 2013 9:50 AM
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Tal, that is the "questionable" sexing information I referred to in my very first post. I came across that too, and looked at a bunch of fish with that in mind and figured it was a bit of a long shot. Maybe it works true when comparing fish collected from the same area. Ok Dave and Kyle, you both seem to have a strong opinion that I should try a deeper tank. The thought of keeping fish in a barrel I can't see into the side of makes me cringe. I've seen the modifications to install a clear acrylic pane (in Matt Witt's book??), so I may try that. I could look into the price of a "column" style aquarium too - Marineland makes a 47-gallon column that is 20x18x31". I seem to remember inquiring about it before and finding out it can't be purchased without the flimsy beaver puke stand it comes with. I would have a hard time plumbing a tank of this shape into either of my broodstock systems though as I wouldn't be able to fit it anywhere near the sumps. Maybe stand-alone would be a good thing - no overflow would make egg collection from the surface easy. On the contrary, a specially designed overflow would make egg collection "automatic". Was it Martin Moe (at MACNA?) that said egg collection in an overflow sieve works well - the eggs are tougher than we might think? Hmm...thoughts? EDIT: The Marineland 47-gallon column tank is not available locally. That would have been too easy, right? :p
<message edited by EasterEggs on Sunday, November 3, 2013 10:15 AM>
Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]
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Re:Flame Angelfish Info
Sunday, November 3, 2013 1:02 PM
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Easter eggs, I only have a strong opinion that deeper tanks will yield better spawning than shallow tanks. Because I have never spawned pygmies in an 18" tank I really can't offer an opinion on that depth. However I'm sure that a dozen people on this site have kept pairs of angels in 55 gallon tanks and could let us know their spawning experiences. I think they will chime in over the next few days. I believe anything that Martin Moe says about fish, but a skimmer type egg collector is almost as easy to make or buy as a net, in my opinion. Keep in mind that Mr. Moe also had great success in hatching and early survival rates by including streptomyacin (spell?) in the hatching vessel, which probably prevented bacterial attack on the egg surface.
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Re:Flame Angelfish Info
Sunday, November 3, 2013 5:48 PM
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I forgot to mention this, but if you want to you could find a standard tank size such as a 90-120g tank that is 24" tall then divide it in half and house two pairs. RCT used 35ish gallon drums which were divided in half for smaller species of angels, and 120s divided in half for the larger species.
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Re:Flame Angelfish Info
Sunday, November 3, 2013 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by EasterEggs
. I've seen the modifications to install a clear acrylic pane (in Matt Witt's book??), so I may try that. I could look into the price of a "column" style aquarium too - Marineland makes a 47-gallon column that is 20x18x31". EDIT: The Marineland 47-gallon column tank is not available locally. That would have been too easy, right? :p You could make a plywood tank with a glass panel with this stuff. Or cut a barrel in half and install a glass or acrylic panel. I'd go with the wood. Idon't know how rigid the barrel would be. http://www.pondarmor.com/...nstruction/wood-ponds/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8olS_u-y3o
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Re:Flame Angelfish Info
Saturday, March 8, 2014 5:59 AM
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Easter Eggs, any updates on your flame angels?
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Re:Flame Angelfish Info
Saturday, March 8, 2014 10:14 AM
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Hi Dave, I only have the one right now, I haven't tried pairing yet. Too many other things on my plate right now.
Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]
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Re:Flame Angelfish Info
Sunday, December 21, 2014 4:46 PM
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Hi, I found a pair of flame angels in a lfs . They were in a 20 gal. Tank and getting along Perfect. Would these two most likely be a male and female?
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