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Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:33 PM
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Breeding Journal DataSheet
This first post should be updated regularly to include new information as events take place or changes are made to your system General Species: Lysmata debelius Social Structure: Two adults Size of Individuals: One is ~3inches, the other is ~2 inches Age of Individuals: Unknown Date added to Tank: October 2013 Broodstock Tank Details Size of Tank: 40 gallon "breeder" Substrate Details: None Filtration Details: Plumbed to the 220 display with liverock Water Changes: Not really, occasional bottom siphoning Water Temperature: ~80F Lighting: Metal halide shared with another 40B directly next to it Lighting Cycle: 6AM to 9PM Other Tank Inhabitants: A single small peppermint shrimp that has evaded my attempts to catch it, a few misc hermit crabs and some cerith snails Broodstock Feeding Details Food Types: Live blackworms, frozen mysis, frozen mash, pellets, flakes Feeding Schedule: At least twice daily, often more Spawning Details Date of First Spawn: Unknown, assumed it was happening for awhile before I started tracking and paying attention Spawn Time of Day: Assumed to be shortly after molt during the night Dates of Consecutive Spawns: 11-26-2013 (molt noted, assumed spawn), 12-25-2013 Courtship Details: None noted Egg Size: ~1mm, although I haven't actually measured any of them Egg Color: The pigment of the adult makes it difficult to see, I only really look/see them when they are close to hatch and at that point they usually have a silver/reflective appearance Egg Count: At least hundreds Hatch Details Hatch Date: 12-9-2013; 1-7-2014 Hatch Time of Day: After lights out # Days after Spawn: 14th night after molt (and assumed spawn) Larvae Description: ~3mm or so, three noticeable pairs of legs, attracted to light, slightly pigmented Larval Tank Details Temperature: 80F Size of Larval Tank: 17 gallon BRT Substrate Details: None Other Tank Decor: None besides the heater Filtration Details: Live phytoplankton Lighting: Fluorescent strip light Lighting Cycle: 6AM to 9PM Water Changes: As needed to remove prey items and siphon the bottom Larval Feeding Details Food Types: nhbbs, Euterpina, Apocyclops, rotifers Feeding Schedule: constant Metamorphosis/Settlement Date of Settlement Start: Days after Hatch: Date of Settlement End: Description of Fry:
Grow-Out Tank Details Temperature: Size of Grow-Out Tank: Substrate Details: Other Tank Decor: Filtration Details: Lighting: Lighting Cycle: Water Changes: Size at Transfer: Age at Transfer: Grow-Out Feeding Details Food Types: Feeding Schedule: Additional Information (No Pictures or Videos in the Section Please) Miscellaneous Information: You will be required to provide photographic evidence in this thread of each event submitted for the MBI Program.
If your thread does not contain these photos the MBI Committee will not be able to approve your reports.
<message edited by shannpeach on Monday, February 17, 2014 8:47 AM>
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Wednesday, December 11, 2013 1:41 PM
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Some pics of the adults:   One is significantly larger than the other. The large one killed the first shrimp I tried to pair it with...but the second shrimp it took to right away. I have been keeping track of when I find molts and since the shrimp are noticeably different in size I can normally determine which one molted. I have tried running a snagger in the tank but never caught anything, likely because there is just way too much water movement in that tank. So Monday night I caught the large shrimp and put it in a modified water pitcher that I will now use as my "hatching chamber." I plan to make some more adjustments to this "system" as I go but for now it's just a water pitcher with an inlet covered in 300uM mesh and an outlet cover in 300uM mesh to allow water flow. I kept the pitcher in the main tank so I didn't need to acclimate/stress the shrimp. I found larvae Tuesday evening (I thought I checked Tuesday morning, but I must have forgotten or not looked very closely!) in the pitcher. I removed the adult and then dumped the larvae into a BRT with some broodstock water (about 1.5-2 gallons). I then dripped in new ASW (about 3 gallons), added nhbbs and Euterpina copepods, Iso and nanno and tetraselmis. This morning I added more Euterpina, but no additional bbs since the number in there looked good (I'll be honest, I don't really know what "good" numbers are...so I am just going by gut feeling for now!) Pictures!   
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:55 AM
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I'll be following along because I think there is good potential with this species. I keep hearing of people that raise them in labs but I don't know if hobbyists have gotten the process yet. I always noticed how much more pigmented larval L. debelius is in contrast to other larval shrimp, I think they have more color from the getgo. Are there other types of copepods you can throw into your BRT for variety? Also, at what point do you think you'll need to remove growing bbs so they don't compete with the debelius larvae?
For me, debelius spawned at dusk like the other Lysmata, you may need to keep the larval snagger in there for several nights in a row to be certain of your harvest. Does your snagger have a light on it? Good luck with this exciting species!
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Thursday, December 12, 2013 8:18 AM
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The snagger does have a light, but the flow is too much in that tank for the larvae to even have a chance of getting there, so I will likely stick with the "hatching chamber" method for awhile.
I think I have read of a couple hobbyists that have, and I know that DFS Liveaquaria had some Captive bred ones for sale for awhile on Diver's Den, but I don't know where they came from. I agree, they do seem to have more color, well, at least some of them do. I do have Apocyclops, but I don't think I will put those in. I also have tisbe and a polyglot that has some larger harps (tigriopus and at least one other kind) that I may add, but not sure yet. The tisbe always seem to show up on their own anyway. I'm not sure what you mean about the artemia "competing" with the larvae, but I will probably siphon out for water changes, save the larvae by putting them back in the tub and use that for now as my main way to remove too large artemia. I imagine I will need to do that starting this weekend. The BRT is drilled and I plan to create a drain that has mesh on it to allow through bbs but not the larvae, but I don't have the right mesh sizes available to do that at the moment. But it is the plan...
My other Lysmata (peppermint shrimp) never spawn at dusk, but rather during the night. Do you mean they release at dusk? If so, it would make sense why I didn't see any in the morning, but saw them in the water pitcher in the evening of that day.
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Sunday, December 15, 2013 7:48 PM
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Back when I bred them was in the days of undergravel filters and airlift tubes. Just before lights out, the shrimp would go up to the top of the airlift (where the bubbles and current were coming out) and cast eggs into the current. I don't remember the exact time of spawning because this was 25 years ago and I may be mistaken that it happened at dusk. But that is what I remember.
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:37 PM
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Dave, how far did you get with them?
They got several water changes this weekend with several additions of nhbbs or copepods or both. I've also been adding nanno, tet, and iso to keep the water tinted.
I pulled a couple for some microscope pics (which I will post tomorrow) and I think they are already at Z3--stalked eyes and a 5 part telson. I'm using Luis A M's skunk cleaner shrimp thread as a reference to stage them at this point. Anyone know of a thread or paper that shows the zoeal stages of this species? I haven't found any great ones yet so I will probably keep using Luis' in the meantime.
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Sunday, December 15, 2013 11:55 PM
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Shannpeach, it's been so long ago that I don't remember. This was around 1993 or so and I wasn't set up for breeding. I usually tried some impromptu last minute stuff like bbs and rotifers, but that was a time when the casual hobbyist didn't have all the phyto strains and copepods like we have today. I never got more than a few days with them.
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Monday, December 16, 2013 8:38 AM
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Here are some pics taken yesterday on day 6. Like I said, based on the stalked eyes and the 5 part telson, I think they are Z3, but it also seems a little early. Maybe not though. Next time I will have to pull some between hatch and day 6 to see if I can spot a different stage.   
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Thursday, December 19, 2013 9:25 AM
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Day 9 yesterday and they were really clearing out the bbs! There are only ~200 (I counted--roughly--during a massive artemia removal the other day that involved bastering out ALOT of larvae). Some pics:    They have had their spear legs for at least a day (at least most of them have) so they are at least Z4, perhaps Z5. I wasn't able to get a good shot of the telson, so I don't know for certain.
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Thursday, December 26, 2013 10:28 AM
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Some day 15 pics: One showing how colored they are--      I think they are Z6 and Z7 right now...not really positive on that though! There aren't a ton left, couldn't really even say how many. This weekend I will probably move them all to a new tub so I can clean out the old one and get rid of the too large artemia. I missed the last hatch from the large shrimp, but it molted last night so I will watch for the next hatch in a couple weeks for my next attempt. Maybe I will try to catch the small shrimp and see if it has eggs as well.
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Thursday, December 26, 2013 7:39 PM
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Monday, December 30, 2013 8:59 AM
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Luis, The pics were actually taken from two different larvae, and in my notes I had jotted down that I thought one was Z6 and one was Z7, so I'm glad that you agree  I really need to pull out some larval shrimp papers and get a better understanding of the legs...there just seem to be so many! I have looked at your thread (many times) and it is one of the main resources I use to attempt to stage my larvae. I also refer to your skunk shrimp thread as well. I was doing a large water change this weekend and realized there are only five left...so I took them out and moved them into a one gallon fish bowl.
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Thursday, January 2, 2014 9:42 AM
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They got a large water change yesterday, and there were only four left at day 23.    Not the best pics, but the larvae weren't being very cooperative.
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Tuesday, January 7, 2014 11:27 AM
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Still four left as of day 28 when they got a 100% water change. They still looked to be Z7 which doesn't surprise me too much since all of them had broken spear legs. Probably molting to fix that before moving to the next stage. The water is also a bit cooler since we are experiencing some very cold cold weather the last few days :/ Heaters are having a hard time keeping up and the entire house is much cooler. I caught the large adult shrimp last night and managed to get a couple pics where you can sort of see the eggs. I put it into the hatching water pitcher last night and expect a hatch tonight or tomorrow night.  
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Wednesday, January 8, 2014 10:05 AM
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I pulled a dead larva last night, so down to three (at most). Last night there was a nice big hatch! Since the female was in the water pitcher "hatching chamber" I was able to catch every last one of them They were put into a BRT with about 2.5 gallons of broodstock water and then I started a drip of some new ASW, about 2 gallons worth. I added nhbbs, nanno, and a small amount of rotifer/Euterpina/Apocyclops mix from another larval container. BRT is heated (set to 80F) and I'm using an airstone to move the water.
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Wednesday, January 8, 2014 7:05 PM
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Wednesday, January 15, 2014 8:21 AM
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As of last night, I had one lone day 36 larva...Still looks to be Z8 as well :/
Then I have a larger amount of day 7 cruising around in the BRT still. No idea what the number is, but there are many. I haven't pulled them to stage them yet; I will try to do that in the next few days.
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Thursday, January 16, 2014 10:26 PM
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The last larva died on day 37  So 37 days is my record so far. Not too shabby for the first go of it. The day 9 larva look pretty good I think. Bottom siphon, water replaced and topped off today. I also added some enriched bbs for the first time. I took some pics and will add them to this post tomorrow if they are in a zoeal stage I haven't posted pics if yet. Which means I have to figure out the zoeal stage. And I think I'm in the section of zoeal stages where you have to count legs...not my strength.
<message edited by shannpeach on Monday, February 3, 2014 10:56 AM>
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Monday, February 3, 2014 10:54 AM
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On Friday I went to dump the orb bowl that once held these larvae. I had pulled the heater earlier in the week and let it get overrun with growing brine shrimp and no added phyto. I pull the airstone, walked away, came back awhile later to dump it and low and behold there were about 5 larvae still alive! Amazing! So I siphoned the gunk out of the bottom, added some new ASW, some nhbbs, some nanno and iso and called it good. These are day 27 today. I pulled one for a couple pics yesterday:   Holy Lysmata legs, batman!  I'm thinking Z8, which is as far as I got them last time, but I was at day 37 the last batch. They seemed to stay in Z8 forever, but they also had busted spear legs. This guy had spear legs that seemed to be the appropriate length. I think the orb was the better rearing option for me, so the next batch I will probably put directly into that.
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Re: Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)
Friday, March 7, 2014 6:31 AM
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Wow, those are indeed some very nice looking legs! You got them along a lot further than I ever did. How is your January 7th batch doing?
And which is your biggest threat to these larvae, water quality or food quantity? I'm not expecting your sceintific conclusion, just your gut feeling.
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