Breeding Journal, Species: Lysmata debelius (Fire Shrimp)

General
Species:  Lysmata debelius
Social Structure:  Two adults
Size of Individuals:  One is ~3inches, the other is ~2 inches
Age of Individuals:  Unknown
Date added to Tank:  October 2013

Broodstock Tank Details
Size of Tank:  40 gallon "breeder"
Substrate Details:  None
Filtration Details:  Plumbed to the 220 display with liverock 
Water Changes:  Not really, occasional bottom siphoning
Water Temperature:  ~80F
Lighting:  Metal halide shared with another 40B directly next to it
Lighting Cycle:  6AM to 9PM
Other Tank Inhabitants:  A single small peppermint shrimp that has evaded my attempts to catch it, a few misc hermit crabs and some cerith snails

Broodstock Feeding Details
Food Types:  Live blackworms, frozen mysis, frozen mash, pellets, flakes
Feeding Schedule:  At least twice daily, often more

Spawning Details
Date of First Spawn:  Unknown, assumed it was happening for awhile before I started tracking and paying attention
Spawn Time of Day:  Assumed to be shortly after molt during the night
Dates of Consecutive Spawns:  11-26-2013 (molt noted, assumed spawn), 12-25-2013 
Courtship Details:  None noted
Egg Size:  ~1mm, although I haven't actually measured any of them
Egg Color:  The pigment of the adult makes it difficult to see, I only really look/see them when they are close to hatch and at that point they usually have a silver/reflective appearance 
Egg Count:  At least hundreds

Hatch Details
Hatch Date:  12-9-2013; 1-7-2014   
Hatch Time of Day:  After lights out
# Days after Spawn:  14th night after molt (and assumed spawn)
Larvae Description:  ~3mm or so, three noticeable pairs of legs, attracted to light, slightly pigmented


Larval Tank Details
Temperature:  80F
Size of Larval Tank:  17 gallon BRT
Substrate Details:  None
Other Tank Decor:  None besides the heater
Filtration Details:  Live phytoplankton
Lighting:  Fluorescent strip light
Lighting Cycle:  6AM to 9PM
Water Changes:  As needed to remove prey items and siphon the bottom

Larval Feeding Details
Food Types:  nhbbs, Euterpina, Apocyclops, rotifers    
Feeding Schedule:  constant

Metamorphosis/Settlement
Date of Settlement Start: 
Days after Hatch: 
Date of Settlement End: 
Description of Fry: 

Grow-Out Tank Details
Temperature: 
Size of Grow-Out Tank: 
Substrate Details: 
Other Tank Decor: 
Filtration Details: 
Lighting: 
Lighting Cycle: 
Water Changes: 
Size at Transfer: 
Age at Transfer: 

Grow-Out Feeding Details
Food Types: 
Feeding Schedule: 

Additional Information
(No Pictures or Videos in the Section Please)
Miscellaneous Information: 



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Some pics of the adults:


One is significantly larger than the other.  The large one killed the first shrimp I tried to pair it with...but the second shrimp it took to right away.
 
I have been keeping track of when I find molts and since the shrimp are noticeably different in size I can normally determine which one molted.  I have tried running a snagger in the tank but never caught anything, likely because there is just way too much water movement in that tank.  So Monday night I caught the large shrimp and put it in a modified water pitcher that I will now use as my "hatching chamber." I plan to make some more adjustments to this "system" as I go but for now it's just a water pitcher with an inlet covered in 300uM mesh and an outlet cover in 300uM mesh to allow water flow.  I kept the pitcher in the main tank so I didn't need to acclimate/stress the shrimp.  I found larvae Tuesday evening (I thought I checked Tuesday morning, but I must have forgotten or not looked very closely!) in the pitcher.  I removed the adult and then dumped the larvae into a BRT with some broodstock water (about 1.5-2 gallons).  I then dripped in new ASW (about 3 gallons), added nhbbs and Euterpina copepods, Iso and nanno and tetraselmis.  This morning I added more Euterpina, but no additional bbs since the number in there looked good (I'll be honest, I don't really know what "good" numbers are...so I am just going by gut feeling for now!)
 
Pictures!

I'll be following along because I think there is good potential with this species.  I keep hearing of people that raise them in labs but I don't know if hobbyists have gotten the process yet.  I always noticed how much more pigmented larval L. debelius is in contrast to other larval shrimp, I think they have more color from the getgo.   Are there other types of copepods you can throw into your BRT for variety?  Also, at what point do you think you'll need to remove growing bbs so they don't compete with the debelius larvae?  
 
For me, debelius spawned at dusk like the other Lysmata, you may need to keep the larval snagger in there for several nights in a row to be certain of your harvest.  Does your snagger have a light on it?  Good luck with this exciting species!

The snagger does have a light, but the flow is too much in that tank for the larvae to even have a chance of getting there, so I will likely stick with the "hatching chamber" method for awhile.
 
I think I have read of a couple hobbyists that have, and I know that DFS Liveaquaria had some Captive bred ones for sale for awhile on Diver's Den, but I don't know where they came from.  I agree, they do seem to have more color, well, at least some of them do.  I do have Apocyclops, but I don't think I will put those in.  I also have tisbe and a polyglot that has some larger harps (tigriopus and at least one other kind) that I may add, but not sure yet.  The tisbe always seem to show up on their own anyway.  I'm not sure what you mean about the artemia "competing" with the larvae, but I will probably siphon out for water changes, save the larvae by putting them back in the tub and use that for now as my main way to remove too large artemia.  I imagine I will need to do that starting this weekend.  The BRT is drilled and I plan to create a drain that has mesh on it to allow through bbs but not the larvae, but I don't have the right mesh sizes available to do that at the moment.  But it is the plan...
 
My other Lysmata (peppermint shrimp) never spawn at dusk, but rather during the night.  Do you mean they release at dusk?  If so, it would make sense why I didn't see any in the morning, but saw them in the water pitcher in the evening of that day.

Back when I bred them was in the days of undergravel filters and airlift tubes.  Just before lights out, the shrimp would go up to the top of the airlift (where the bubbles and current were coming out) and cast eggs into the current.  I don't remember the exact time of spawning because this was 25 years ago and I may be mistaken that it happened at dusk.  But that is what I remember.

Dave, how far did you get with them?

They got several water changes this weekend with several additions of nhbbs or copepods or both. I've also been adding nanno, tet, and iso to keep the water tinted.

I pulled a couple for some microscope pics (which I will post tomorrow) and I think they are already at Z3--stalked eyes and a 5 part telson. I'm using Luis A M's skunk cleaner shrimp thread as a reference to stage them at this point. Anyone know of a thread or paper that shows the zoeal stages of this species? I haven't found any great ones yet so I will probably keep using Luis' in the meantime.

Shannpeach, it's been so long ago that I don't remember.  This was around 1993 or so and I wasn't set up for breeding.  I usually tried some impromptu last minute stuff like bbs and rotifers, but that was a time when the casual hobbyist didn't have all the phyto strains and copepods like we have today.  I never got more than a few days with them. 

Here are some pics taken yesterday on day 6.  Like I said, based on the stalked eyes and the 5 part telson, I think they are Z3, but it also seems a little early.  Maybe not though.  Next time I will have to pull some between hatch and day 6 to see if I can spot a different stage.
 



 
 

Day 9 yesterday and they were really clearing out the bbs!  There are only ~200 (I counted--roughly--during a massive artemia removal the other day that involved bastering out  ALOT of larvae).
 
Some pics:



 
They have had their spear legs for at least a day (at least most of them have) so they are at least Z4, perhaps Z5.  I wasn't able to get a good shot of the telson, so I don't know for certain.

Some day 15 pics:
One showing how colored they are--





 
I think they are Z6 and Z7 right now...not really positive on that though! There aren't a ton left, couldn't really even say how many.  This weekend I will probably move them all to a new tub so I can clean out the old one and get rid of the too large artemia.
 
I missed the last hatch from the large shrimp, but it molted last night so I will watch for the next hatch in a couple weeks for my next attempt.  Maybe I will try to catch the small shrimp and see if it has eggs as well.

I can see 4 pairs of legs,which is Z6 stage.
But then the antenna buds clearly define Z7.
Have you seen: http://www.marinebreeder.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=201&t=1215

Luis, 
The pics were actually taken from two different larvae, and in my notes I had jotted down that I thought one was Z6 and one was Z7, so I'm glad that you agree  I really need to pull out some larval shrimp papers and get a better understanding of the legs...there just seem to be so many!
 
I have looked at your thread (many times) and it is one of the main resources I use to attempt to stage my larvae.  I also refer to your skunk shrimp thread as well.
 
I was doing a large water change this weekend and realized there are only five left...so I took them out and moved them into a one gallon fish bowl.  

They got a large water change yesterday, and there were only four left at day 23.



 
Not the best pics, but the larvae weren't being very cooperative.

Still four left as of day 28 when they got a 100% water change.  They still looked to be Z7 which doesn't surprise me too much since all of them had broken spear legs.  Probably molting to fix that before moving to the next stage.  The water is also a bit cooler since we are experiencing some very cold cold weather the last few days :/  Heaters are having a hard time keeping up and the entire house is much cooler.
 
I caught the large adult shrimp last night and managed to get a couple pics where you can sort of see the eggs.  I put it into the hatching water pitcher last night and expect a hatch tonight or tomorrow night.

I pulled a dead larva last night, so down to three (at most).
 
Last night there was a nice big hatch!  Since the female was in the water pitcher "hatching chamber" I was able to catch every last one of them
 
They were put into a BRT with about 2.5 gallons of broodstock water and then I started a drip of some new ASW, about 2 gallons worth.  I added nhbbs, nanno, and a small amount of rotifer/Euterpina/Apocyclops mix from another larval container.  BRT is heated (set to 80F) and I'm using an airstone to move the water.

Okay, I have some pics from day 28 which I mainly like because of the colors on the shrimp:


 
Then some day 1 pics from last night's/this morning's hatch:


 

As of last night, I had one lone day 36 larva...Still looks to be Z8 as well :/
 
Then I have a larger amount of day 7 cruising around in the BRT still.  No idea what the number is, but there are many.  I haven't pulled them to stage them yet; I will try to do that in the next few days.

The last larva died on day 37

So 37 days is my record so far. Not too shabby for the first go of it. The day 9 larva look pretty good I think. Bottom siphon, water replaced and topped off today. I also added some enriched bbs for the first time. I took some pics and will add them to this post tomorrow if they are in a zoeal stage I haven't posted pics if yet. Which means I have to figure out the zoeal stage. And I think I'm in the section of zoeal stages where you have to count legs...not my strength.

On Friday I went to dump the orb bowl that once held these larvae.  I had pulled the heater earlier in the week and let it get overrun with growing brine shrimp and no added phyto.  I pull the airstone, walked away, came back awhile later to dump it and low and behold there were about 5 larvae still alive!  Amazing!  So I siphoned the gunk out of the bottom, added some new ASW, some nhbbs, some nanno and iso and called it good.  These are day 27 today.  I pulled one for a couple pics yesterday:


Holy Lysmata legs, batman!

 
I'm thinking Z8, which is as far as I got them last time, but I was at day 37 the last batch.  They seemed to stay in Z8 forever, but they also had busted spear legs.  This guy had spear legs that seemed to be the appropriate length.  I think the orb was the better rearing option for me, so the next batch I will probably put directly into that.

Wow, those are indeed some very nice looking legs!  You got them along a lot further than I ever did.  How is your January 7th batch doing?
 
And which is your biggest threat to these larvae, water quality or food quantity?  I'm not expecting your sceintific conclusion, just your gut feeling.

I don't have any batches going right now. I want to try them in the orb bowl, but right now I have what I THINK is Lysmata pederseni so it will be in use for potentially months. I noticed today that the larger shrimp molted in the last couple days, so maybe I will put it in the hatching chamber soon and then put the larvae with the other lysmata. Maybe.

I think there are a couple problems at play. First, when I use the BRT I only partially fill it. This doesn't allow the best air flow pattern and is a smaller volume of water than ideal. I could fill it up, but another issue comes into play--then I have to siphon A LOT of water out when I need to remove prey items that are too large/too plentiful. I haven't quite managed to master adding the perfect amount of bbs with this species yet. Once I get the BRTs to be flow-through, it should help solve those problems, but then I may have the problem of dealing with hydroids and other pests like so many flow through larval set-ups.

Well, Dave, you gave me the push to collect these again...Last night I saw the smaller of the pair (which is now nearly as big as the larger one) had eggs that looked nearly ready to hatch.  I snagged it and put it in a hatching chamber.  Last night they hatched and the adult molted.  I put 5 gallons of broodstock water into a BRT and put the larvae in that with a heater, airstone (turned low), RG complete, and 12 hour enriched bbs.  I started to drip in about 1-1.5 gallon new ASW as well.  My goal will be to bring it up to 10 gallons over the next couple days.
 
Here we go again