Losing Clownfish larvae After first 8 hours after hatch

I have been raising Ocellaris and Percula "onyx" clowns for about a year now.  I have a problem with losing the entire batch of clowns of either species within 8 hours after hatch.  I have had some good batches that when they make it past 8 hours I raise them up without any major losses.  I cannot seem to put a finger on what may be the problem.  Once they hatch the larvae look pretty good and are swimming around and active.  They seem to start eating right away if I add rotifiers.  My rotifiers are grown on rotigrow plus in 5 gallon buckets.
 
I have been using a 5.5 gallon tank with the four sides of the tank blacked out with a garbage bag, the bottom pane is light colored.  I use a 50watt heater and an airstone with adjustable airflow.  The airstone is placed under the heater.  I use a clip on light with a 13 wattt compact flourscent bulb for lighting.  I have had the most success when lighting the larvae tank 24 hours a day until they are four days old.  II have tried keeping the tank dark for the first 8 hours and putting no rotifiers or greenwater in and had the same results.  Up until the last batch I have lightly tinted the larvae water green with rotigrow plus.  For the last batch I switched to rotigreen omega and still lost the entire hatch.  The temperature of the tank is 80F and the salinity 1.025 which is the same as the broodstock system.  Both species of eggs hatch on night 8.  I have just found out on the broodstock tank that my apex was not calibrated correctly so the temperature was around 78-79.  I have adjusted it to 80 but the first set of eggs at the new temperature still hatched as 8 days.  I have tried letting the eggs hatch in the broodstock system and artificially hatching them.  I tend to get better results hatching them in the larvae tank but losses can be seen either way.
 
The parents are feed three times daily with Rods food original and breeders blend, formula one and spectrum pellets and mysis shrimp and pacific plankton.  The ocellaris spawn every 10-11 days and the onyx about every 15 days
 
Somes things I plan to try on the next batch is maybe changing the light bulb to a 9 watt compact flourscent bulb and blacking out the bottom of the tank.  I think the lighter color bottom may be reflecting light and attracting the larvae to the bottom.
 
If anyone has any other ideas please let me know
Thanks

One of two things.
 

• Water quality - What is your starting water?
• Broodstock diet - I see you mix it up pretty good, try to add some more varity to it.  Try feeding 4-5 times, but a little less food each time.

 
Also, only use RotiGreen and dont go back to RotiGrow - People have nothing but problems on RotiGrow.
 
What are you hatching them in?

-Adam

are you using the water from the parents tank or mixing it to match?
 
 

RLTW

180 Gallon Mixed Reef

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8

I am using water from the broodstock tank to hatch them in.  My broodstock system is attached to my 240 gallon reef.  There is 400 gallons of water on the system and has typically reef water parameters (PH 8.0-8.1, No nitrite of ammonium, Nitrates less than 10, phosphate .02-.03, Alk 10, Calcium 440, Mag 1360). 
 
The eggs are typically hatched in the 5.5 larvae tank.  Sometimes I have collected the larvae in the broodstock system but I have not done so in the last 6 months or so.

I used to do mine in a 5 gallon tank, but was told that a 10 was even better. Fill it halfway. You may want to try that. I was having major losses too.

RLTW

180 Gallon Mixed Reef

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8

How many times have you tired and failed?

-Adam

I was thinking about trying a larger tank, or a black round tub.
 
I would say that this has happened to me with entire losses of the hatch or the majority (maybe 5-10 left) 20-25 times.  I have had 6 batches where I have gotten 40-100 fish past 60 days)

I have been told to use rotigreen for the larval tank because the other stuff can suffocate the fry, did you at some point change the algae you were using for the larval tank?

The last batch I used rotigreen omega and lost everything again.  Before that batch everything had been done with varying levels of rotigrow plus.  Even without the rotigrow I had batches that would die within 8 hours of hatch in complete darkness.

I would try a 10g tank if it is not a problem for you.  I agree with rgrking that a 10g tank is better.  Fill it with 5g of broodstock water and hatch as usual.  I personally use a 10g tank with the standard 10g incandescent tops with 15w bulbs in it.  I just went to petco and bought 5ft. of the black backing for the tank.  It is exactly twice the height of a 10g tanks so you can cut it in half and black out 2 tanks with one piece of backing.  I like it because after meta it can be taken off and rolled up to use on another tank when needed and it wraps around the tank nicely.  My bottoms of the tanks are sitting on a white table so the bottom it light so I don't think that is your problem.  I light the tanks 24/7 thru meta with my clowns and can consistently have survival rates of 90%+ from hatch thru meta.  The rotigreen omega is a much better greenwater for the larval tank but I still use the rotigrow for the rotifer cultures.

I use standard 10G tanks that are painted black on 3 sides, the end is covered with black corrugated plastic until settlement, then removed for viewing. I start with 5 gallons of water from the broodstock system and increase the volume with new SW and FW for evap.
 
I remove tiles with eggs on hatch night and cover the tanks so they are dark for hatching. If I pull the tiles early in the evening I sometimes add rotifers at that time. Usually I wait until the morning after hatch to add rotifers and RotiGreen.
 
I light the fry tank with a CF clamp light for 14hrs a day. They do get some ambient light in the morning before I turn the light on as the larval tanks are located closer to the window.
 
This method works for me about 95% of the time. Once in a while I'll lose a batch for no apparent reason.  
 
 

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Do you bleach and dechlorinate the tank first? I dont think that bacteria is your problem, though. too soon for that.
 
 

I clean the tank and let it dry out before I use the tank again.  I have not tried bleaching the tank though prior to use.  I do have a 10 gallon tank so I will give that a shot this time.  Otherwise I seem to doing the same basic steps as everyone else.

To be honest with you I have not bleached a tank in over 4 years.  Now granted my tanks are on a 16 tank system with water in them all the time.  When I am ready for a new batch of larva I shut off the water to the tank,  pull the standpipe to drain the water to the sump and then add 5g of broodstock water. 

I just setup for a hatch tonight.  I have a new 10 gallon tank setup as suggested.  Hopefully I will have better results.

Bleaching is one of those things that I do because when I did them, I had great survival.  Perhaps I would have great survival if I did not bleach, but its so easy to do, that I don't want to take the chance that not doing it may not work.

This looks like still one more case of PMD or first night death.A very old clown breeders pest,but people seem to forget it and remain clueless about this problem.

I had this happen a couple times. I would transfer water, move tile, and add Rotifers and RG+. Previously I had added the Rotifers and RG+ the next morning. Maybe completely off base but I felt I was rapidly depleting oxygen levels by adding such heavy rotifer dose so quickly. I went back to adding rots the next morning and it didn't happen again. Kind of a guess.

Thanks for all the feedback,
 
I noticed something on the last batch.  The larvae seem to be attracted to the airstone and seem to be getting trapped under or around it.  How much flow should be coming out of the airstone or do you even you and airstone?  I known in Wilkersons book it talks about not bubbling them too hard or you may damage them.  What is too much in your experience?

This looks like still one more case of PMD or first night death.A very old clown breeders pest,but people seem to forget it and remain clueless about this problem.
 
 
 
I would be interested in knowing more

PMD is when
Well developed eggs fail to hatch,or
Larvae hatch well and look healthy,but are some or all found dead the following morning.
Lots has  been written about PMD in many forums.

Just a thought, but are you checking which containers/tanks these are happening in? If it only happens in one or two, then I'd wonder about the container.  If it is all of them, then I'd be thinking more along the lines of broodstock nutrition (or did you clean the tanks/black round tubs with something?) and/or other environmental issues.

About the airstone:
Are you finding a lot of the dead ones under or around the airstone? It is not the airstone that killed them, but rather the currents produced by the airstone leave a dead spot under it where immobile things accumulate.

I am finding the dead ones all over the aquarium.  The hatch last night died overnight again.  After hatch I started feeding them and adding rotigrow omega.  They looked pretty good and were eating.  I keep an eye on them for 2 hours then when to bed.  Got up and all were dead.  As for as hatching tanks it is happening on any tank I use.  The one last night was brand new. 
 
I am beginning to think it is something to do with adding too much green water or rotifers.   Maybe a lack of oxygen or something.   I am going to cut back on both and see what happens on the next hatch. 

Have you tried using RotiGreen?

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Yes, the last two batches I use Rotigreen Omega and had the same results

Ok, just wondered. You said RotiGrow above.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Sorry about that,  I meant to type green. 

When I had this going on I wish I had a meter to test O2 to see if that was really the case. Any chance you could borrow one somewhere? As mentioned earlier, once I went back to waiting roughly 5-8 hours to dose the RG+ and rotifers my die-off stopped. Good luck on the test!

goat585, you have written the near exact story of my short breeding career.  I am pulling my hair out trying to narrow down my problem.  I have not heard of PMD so I will go and research that.  What does it stand for?  I am also centering my thoughts around the "when" and "how much" rotifer and RotiGreen Omega to add.  I followed Kathys recommendation on bleaching, "sterilizing" the larva tank and water and have had no improvement.  I used FASW for my last two hatches and still no improvement.  Of approximately 10 hatches I have (3) juveniles to show for it.  I will be checking back to see your progress. 

Well the last two batches I had were the same results.  I did have really bad hatch rates on those batches but I managed to get a couple to survive.  I had another hatch tonight.  I noticed that the majority of them are laying on their sides on the bottom of the tank.  There are some swimming.  The ones laying on the bottom are occasional thrusting upwards and then going to the bottom and laying down on their side again.  I tried to take a video and will get it up tomorrow night.  
 
Has anyone experienced this type of behavior?  Is it something to do with my light?  The other question I have is how hard should the airstone be bubbling?

Possibly a far fetched thought but I noticed that your first spawn report is from back in December of 2010. Is you micro algae from that time as well? If so is this the possible issue? The longest I have found for storage for micro algae is 2years frozen and if you are at that or past that point then maybe you need some new algae.

I realize you are not at two years yet but if its old maybe its not as good as it could be. 

Please post a picture of how green the tank looks.  
 
Ideally, it should be very pastel, and just cloudy enough so that one cannot see clearly through it.  But I doubt that this is your problem….

The algae pastes are 4 months and 1 month old so I think I should be good there.  Last night as things were looking not as well as I liked I decided to added about 2 gallons of fresh saltwater to the larvae tank.  I waited about 15 minutes and checked on the tank and the larvae looked a little more active.  I added another .5 gallons of water and went to bed.  I got up this morning and I still have some alive.  Not the entire batch but I would guess 25-50 it was hard to see as there were a lot laying on the bottom but they were alive.  There were more swimming in the water column then last night.  I added a little more fresh saltwater, rotifiers and rotigreen omega to the larvae tank and left for work.  Hopefully I will have the majority of them alive when I get home. 
 
I will post some pictures and videos tonight of how dark the water is.  I try to just add enough so it just tints the water a light green. 
 
Thanks for the suggestions.  I should have another hatch tonight or tomorrow.  On that batch i am going to try 100% new saltwater and hatch them and see what happens
 

I'm going to chime in here and say i just had this problem last night. Came down this morning to find all the B+W larvae had hatched but were dead. Just a few stragglers. I've been having problems with hatching and raising any quantity of B+W darwins for some time now. It might be a fish issue or a diet issue. Not sure at this point.

Mike Meadows
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/thecoralshoppe
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheCoralShoppe?feature=mhee
 

I wanted to mention here that I've never had any troubles with RotiGrow Plus. But, I do tend to get O. marina in any open water and the dino tends to mop up any over use of RG.
 
If I might suggest: Try cycling a fresh tank through the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate cycle with water that's not from your broodstock system. When it's fully cycled, then try to raise some clowns in there while transferring as little broodstock water as possible in the process. It takes a while (to get through the cycle), but it's a way to eliminate a lot of the potential causes for the problems you might be seeing. If you still see issues, then I would certainly look into broodstock nutrition.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Andy, i had thought of that too. I've been trying the sterilizing effect per Kathy. Doesn't seem to be working well for me. I would always shut the BRT down on the day of pulling the pot. Scrub it , siphon out all the water and debris, and then partially fill with water directly from the broodstock tank. Pull the pot and had little trouble. Next pot i pull i'm just going to transfer over to the tub without any of the previous stuff and see how it goes. Also having trouble on the B+W's dying around and after meta. I end up with very low percentage actually being raised to juveniles. Is this common for B+W's?

Mike Meadows
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/thecoralshoppe
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheCoralShoppe?feature=mhee
 

Let us know, please how it goes with a cycled tank.  I've been doing the bleach thing since I started doing this, and it works for me, but I sure would like to avoid it, if it makes no difference.
 
Two things convinced me that it was the way to go: Edgar Diaz does it, he told me how, and in Frank Hoff's book they did a trial with a cycled tank and a sterile tank, and they were able to raise more fish in the sterile tank, all the while monitering ammonia and nitrite and they went thru the roof, but the fish did better.  This may only work with clownfish.
 
Interestingly, I recently raised a batch in a (sterilized) BRT that I did very little to keep water quality good.  I didn't siphon more than once the whole time, didn't change water, just kept up with salinity (top offs) and feeding.  Some larvae died, but most lived, and amazingly, I have few misbars and no gill issues.  They were in the BRT for 3 weeks, and now are in the new system.  The little guys are growing fast. 

I've placed a fairly large volume of my display tank water under my microscope a drop at a time and I can promise you that it's not the water I'd prefer to raise my chilluns in. Presuming, of course, that my children could be raised in water, but you know what I mean. That's why I run mine as a separate cycled system. I think it's time I start mine over again, but that's another story.
 
The two points of using broodstock water, from what I can tell, are to avoid some ammonia build-up by importing a bit of biofilter to the tank with the larvae (which doesn't work very well in most cases anyway) and to avoid the harshness of newly-made ASW. By cycling a tank first, you avoid both of those problems while also avoiding importing problems from your broodstock tank water. It's just a way to try to narrow down the field of possible problems to help try to figure out what's going wrong.
 
The problem, of course, is that it takes a long time to cycle a tank. That can be solved by running tanks on a system or by simply keeping a 10 gal. cycled with a bunch of sponge filters in there. Just move water and a sponge filter to a new larval tank for a week or so before you need to put fish in there. Then top up the 10 gal. with new water. Easy.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886