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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Friday, January 11, 2013 3:00 AM
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 Originally Posted by GinaReef
Pelagic egg/larvae collector to be inserted in the overflow pipe and kept under the sump( or collection container) water line.
We have a winner! 
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Friday, January 18, 2013 1:04 AM
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Link - Reference
Originally Posted by steelcube I'm guessing it is a way to quarantine the pregnant sexy shrimp before they release larvae to make catching the larvae easier. What is the exact setup going to be though? Will this be placed in the same tank as the pregnant sexy originated from until larvae are released. Integrated into plumbing?
I'm also trying to work on breeding sexy shrimp and am waiting for larvae to be released, everything else has been prepared. I assume my males aren't mature enough since they seem even smaller than most other males. I've had 4 females and 2 males for a couple months now with nothing. Close....  When I started, I had a large male, a small male, and a few females. The larger male got all of the attention, but then mysteriously disappeared. I gave the smaller male some time to work his magic, but they just weren't interested, so I moved him out and bought more shrimp. All of the new males were still very small, but I put one in the breeder anyway. Despite his diminutive size, the females warmed up to him quickly and have been breeding non-stop ever since. Currently, I have 6 medium to large females and the one still small male. 5 of the females tend to group, while the sixth, having been added later, still tends to remain at a distance, despite being the biggest shrimp. She and the small male still breed even tho she is 3 times his size. She also produces the largest clutch. Based on this experience, it would seem the shrimp have personalities and personal preference. There is an in-group, an out-group, females that like big males, males that like big females, and those that say size doesn't matter.  Good luck with it!
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Friday, January 18, 2013 1:12 AM
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I came to the conclusion that the reason I wasn't seeing much difference after the first minute was most likely because the eggs were getting entirely decapsulated within that first minute. Thus for my second test, I decided to slow the reaction down and used a 50% solution. I took samples from 1 to 4 minutes at 30 second intervals, then looked at them under the scope. Ah ha! Now I was seeing change over time, but it didn't appear as tho I had tested long enough. For my third test, I again used 50% solution and took samples from 4 to 7 minutes at 1 minute intervals. Below are the results. Keep in mind that the scope light had to be progressively dimmed to prevent glare as the eggs became increasingly transparent. Photoshop was used to help correct for this and as a result it is difficult to appreciate the full differences in translucency.  This of course raises the question: what do we want? Decapsulation serves two primary purposes: - Sanitize
- Hatch Assist
I suspect that first one is mostly accomplished within the first 30 seconds. Everything after that is to make the egg shell as thin as possible so hatching is easier. Just don't kill the contents! At 4 minutes, the shells are only beginning to dissolve and at 7 nearly no shells remain. Thus, to my own untrained eye, 4 minutes appears too early and 7 minutes appears too late. Additionally, by 7 minutes I noticed that same raw-egg-yolk like consistency starting to develop in the water. You can see it; the bubbles start foaming. For minutes 5 and 6, I performed a hatch-out test. Using a pipit, I measured out equal samples of a few hundred eggs and placed them in my new reactors at 80*F (26.67* C) for exactly 24 hours.  I performed my usual extraction method...  ...first covering the sides of the reactor and placing a high intensity LED light near the base. This attracts the BBS and helps them to settle before extraction by siphon. Using this technique, I can pretty reliably collect around 95% of all hatchlings. Below are the results. All three photos are of the same two caps and give a clear indication of relative number and distribution.  Hmmm... wasn't seeing any real difference, so gave the reactors another look. There were slightly but noticeably more remaining BBS in the 5 minute reactor, but perhaps more telling, there were more unhatched eggs in the bottom of the 6 minute reactor. Based on these results, I've come to the following recommendation. Decapsulation: - Hydrate eggs in fresh water for 1 hour.
- Equal parts fresh water and regular bleach for 5 minutes.
Results: (click for high-def)  Hope this helps! 
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Saturday, January 19, 2013 7:45 AM
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Holy...  I'm getting hatch-out the...   I'm reaching feeding density with a single pinch of brine shrimp eggs.
<message edited by Whys Alives on Sunday, January 20, 2013 12:51 AM>
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Monday, January 28, 2013 2:11 AM
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Link
Originally Posted by steelcube
Really? ONLY a pinch? I usually use a tablespoon or so per hatch of bbs eggs. Well, eggs floating around in a super saturated brine solution. I just ordered 8oz of eggs online so if it's only a pinch these eggs will last awhile.
For reals, yo! The high def photo of the decapsulated eggs above is actually bathing in a small amount of brine water that is at saturation. I find it's easiest to just keep adding salt to a cup of RO water until it stops dissolving, then I add a pinch of baking soda to keep the pH stable. Once the eggs are fully drained, I put just enough brine water on them that they become somewhat fluid and find a level when the container is tilted. When I want to start a batch, I give the cup a swish, a tilt, and then dip my pinch spoon to get the same amount every time. Before I started decaping my eggs, I needed at least 2 pinches of dry eggs to even start approaching feeding density. I say approach because not all of the BBS disappear between feedings. Thus the first few feedings allow their density to accumulate. With my newly decaped eggs, I only need a single spoon full. I did make a small adjustment to my kreisel which is also helping to retain density, so it's not like I've doubled my hatch-out, but it has clearly and noticeably improved by a significant amount. A single pinch is all I need. Also, I'm getting full hatch-out by hour 18, instead of 24, and exceedingly few duds. I couldn't feel more confident about my decap and hatch process at this point.  Link
Originally Posted by steelcube
Sweet, I have to start practicing hatching bbs again. Just had one sexy release the other night, another one today while I was trying to quarantine it and the last one is quarantined and gravid. Hopefully it won't release till the eggs arrive. If not I understand that I should expect them to release larvae every 20-30 days.
Just curious how many shrimp have you had settle so far?
 It takes 26 days to reach settlement. Each day a few are lost, so the goal is to have one left by day 26. Thus far I've reached day 22. I took a video of it under the scope: here. I have 6 actively breeding females, and keep them all in a small specialized tank by themselves. They all mate and release at different times, so I don't bother keeping track of the time between. Every fews days I find more larvae and toss them into the kreisel. If you want more specifics, look: here. Incidentally, they prefer to release in the dark. Oh, and don't worry. They can go a couple days without food. So hang on to them until the food arrives. Also, if you haven't already, look at my previous posts regarding colonial hydroids: here. Link
Originally Posted by steelcube
Yeah, I've checked out many threads on how to do it. They've revealed many things to me that helped like that previously I had all females and no males so I had to male order some.
While messing around with the female in her qt bottle she released so now I have a bunch of larave but no bbs yet. I should get some in on Wednesday so I'll hang on to them and hope I have some left.
I saw your posts on hydroids. My current setup is the same as one I saw in someone's thread. It's an upside down soda bottle with airline tubing that sit in the fuge in my sump. Its cap has been replaced with brine mesh so water changes are as easy as raising and lowering the bottle. I'm hoping this method prevents anything from entering unless it was attached to the female when I put her in.
Cool. That's a nice simple setup. I hope it works out for you. And just so you know, it's widely believed hydroids often find their way in on undecapsulated brine shrimp eggs. Have you started a thread? Link it! Link
Originally Posted by jersey
There is great article on breeding sexy shrimp in this months Coral Magazine. It was probably mentioned already, but just in case it wasn't,
Link
Originally Posted by steelcube Thanks for the link; that's an interesting article. Any chance you can find the previous edition containing the kreisel build? Woot! A couple of my larger females both released [Jan. 23, 2013]. Now I have somewhere close to 400 larvae in the kreisel, all added in the last few days. I think this is gonna be my lucky brood. 
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Monday, January 28, 2013 2:17 AM
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The best of luck with them! You should document your success with the Artemia in an Artemia journal, or other relevant food topic, so it isn't buried in this shrimp topic, IMHO.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Monday, January 28, 2013 2:28 AM
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Link
Originally Posted by steelcube
Whys,
When you open that link click the vertical tab on the left that says "Archive" and select "Nov/Dec 2012" page 95
Ah, thanks! I guess I'm the only one that uses the 6 Gallon Winpak for the drum.  It's polyethylene and a heck of a lot easier to work with than acrylic. Unlike the vast majority of nontoxic drum shaped containers available (ie: buckets), these aren't tapered on one end. Once cut, it rolls straight, as evidenced by my video. I bought extras.  Link
Originally Posted by steelcube
Well whys I have to say you were right about the larvae being able to survive without food a few days. They were released Monday and I still see them wiggling around. I finally got eggs and decapsulated them, waiting for them to hatch now. Just thought I'd share that with you, I'm kind of surprised they are still alive, hopefully they hold on a little longer.
Link
Originally Posted by nanoreefnate This is a great project that you're working on and I love the comedic relief you put into all of you post with pictures and such. I especially enjoyed the use of the Zero fighter plane reference. Keep up the good work! Thank you for saying!
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Monday, January 28, 2013 2:30 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWelsh
The best of luck with them! You should document your success with the Artemia in an Artemia journal, or other relevant food topic, so it isn't buried in this shrimp topic, IMHO.
An excellent point! I'll try and do that soon.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Friday, February 1, 2013 2:04 AM
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I was a little disappointed with my Babies Eating Babies video, so made another. Babies Eating Babies 2 -- The Sequel -- Now with...  This video can be hard to watch, so here is an artistic dramatization depicting the horror.  The baby eaters are slender, forever hungry, and preying upon the pink masses. They tend to hang upside down, snatching babies with their claws, then holding them there while taking small bites. Watch to the gruesome end to see the horned one. } Link
Originally Posted by steelcube
Hey Whys, how do you tell if the larvae are dead? I've seen some floating at the top. I assumed they were trapped due to surface tension so I pour water in frequently. Should I assume any that are floating around in the current (w/o me pouring water in or completing wc) are still alive? I do see some twitch, but I have to watch for awhile to start noticing it. I don't usually see many on the bottom, but since I have mesh on the bottom I can't easily see down there. I see some pop up from the bottom, when I raise/lower the bottle to complete a wc and sort of assume it's because they all got sucked down when I raised the bottle.
Also how concerned should I be about not removing the dead ones. Again due to my setup I've assumed any pollution gets pulled out and broken down in my tank, so I don't worry about it. I thought about pouring out the floaters, but I'm not sure if they are trapped there, or are really dead.
Finally, UPDATES PLEASE
I wish I could give you more definitive answers.  I'm running a different system. So for me, dead larvae just kind of disappear and are eaten by the bio-cycle. But basically, if they're healthy, they should at least twitch when disturbed. I've noticed larvae sitting motionless on the surface at times, but more often they'll sit on the bottom. Not always, just sometimes. I used to worry more about it, but I've since come to the conclusion that they simply aren't hungry. In both cases, they eventually kick off and reenter the water column. And I seem to see the fewest "lazy" larvae right after I've added food. Kind of like they jump at the dinner bell. But I could be wrong.  Whatever the case, I doubt the dead larvae pose much of a pollution threat when compared to the dead BBS and BBS molts. Again, not sure how much my particular system can tell you about that, but if your water changes are taking care of those, then it should take care of any dead larvae as well. I imagine their bodies break down pretty quickly. See? Not very definitive. :]  I can tell you this. It is typically the goal to keep the larvae in motion as much as possible so that they can eat as much as possible. There are various things that can help or hinder this goal. A point source light from above can help and light from the sides can hinder. In both cases, the larvae are drawn to it and end up either in the water column or on a surface, and they don't find food while on a surface. Beyond that, I really can't say.  Hope this helps.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Sunday, February 10, 2013 3:32 AM
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Link
Originally Posted by steelcube
Wow that's awesome seeing them feed. Yeah, I think I need to change my setup so I just have a separate cyclindrical aquarium for the larvae. I have trouble observing them enough to come to any conclusions and it seems even that can be difficult. I was hoping for a miracle for my first hatch, but I guess I'll hunker down and try to replicate more precisely other successes. Unfortunately I think a kriesel it out of the question for my setup. Thanks for the help.
To be honest, the only time I've seen that upside-down bottle system used for sexy shrimp, the person ultimately gave up on the project in disgust, without ever settling a sexy. I don't know if that design is based on a successful precursor or not, nor have I ever used it, but I do think it has promise. For me, this project has been as much about experimenting with my own kreisel design, as it has been about settling a sexy for proof-of-concept. There are simpler designs that have been successful for sexy shrimp. I give Pj86's glass cylinder vase as an example. But that requires daily water changes and simply isn't appropriate for many other species of pelagic larvae. And some designs only work well because the larval cycle is short enough. Once I have my proof of concept, I'm moving on to uncharted waters. The larval cycle for BVN could potentially be very long. So my own design needs to be as robust as possible, and I continue to refine it as I go. Incidentally, when it comes to the health of the larvae, not all hatchlings are created equal. I suspect under nourished females not only produce fewer, but also smaller young. I could be wrong about that, but one thing I believe I've noticed is that better nourished females produce more energetic young. Specifically, their predator avoidance is much more pronounced. By this I mean the way the larvae try to dart away from suction or siphon. My healthiest hatchlings can be hard to catch for transfer. Which brings me to my next update! The 250-micron [500-micron] nylon-mesh was insufficient to prevent newly hatched Thor amboinensis larvae from escaping the trap. I guess direction of flow makes all the difference, because I get away with using 425-micron on my kreisel screen just fine. I probably lose a few larvae at the earliest stages as a result, but that's less significant than the clogging I would encounter if I were using a smaller micron. But in the case of the larvae trap on the overflow drain, the flow pushes them directly thru the screen head first. So I ordered some new nylon and will rebuild the trap using 132-micron [250-micron] mesh.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Sunday, February 10, 2013 3:34 AM
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I need to make a correction. When I built my larva trap, I mistakenly grabbed the wrong micron mesh. I knew I had both 425 micron and 250 micron, and recognizing one set as the 425, I assumed the other was the 250. But as it turns out, I still had some 500 micron mesh I had completely forgotten, and that is what I ended up using. OOOPS!
So now I need to rebuild the trap with the 250 micron, as I had originally intended. Tho for other's information, the newly hatched larvae can fit thru 425 micron mesh when pushed or pulled thru head or tail first.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Sunday, February 10, 2013 3:40 AM
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Sunday, February 10, 2013 10:47 AM
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Nice!
--Andy, the bucket man. "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Friday, February 15, 2013 3:59 PM
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Link
Originally Posted by Umm_fish?
Nice!
Link
Originally Posted by jamesb2012
Now I understand your sig Whys! Before it looked like a random zooplankton :lol:
The more you look, the more you'll find. Link
Originally Posted by steelcube
Wow that is a lot of larvae!
So I've never heard of MBI, but after looking at it more I may start a journal over the summer. What's with the points though? Just to symbolize your success or progress?
I was losing about a dozen a day a few days ago. Not sure why, just seemed to be a bit of a developmental hump at that point, but it appears to have past and losses have really leveled out. I have a couple that appear to have settled, but no metamorphosis at this point. The MBI badges indicate your successes. No idea about the points; ask CMPenny. And... LINK YOUR THREAD! ... Please. Link
Originally Posted by steelcube Link
Originally Posted by steelcube
How important do you think lighting is for the larvae? Also I know heat is important for hatching bbs, but if I set up two 2-liter bottles and just provide a light for them would be sufficient to hatch them in 12-16 hours? Maybe I need to try it. I feel this set up would make hatching them easier as far as cleaning and starting a new hatch.
While it is always best to try provide ideal conditions, fact is brine shrimp eggs will hatch in much less than ideal conditions. I always use freshly mixed Oceanic sea water already at temp when I add the eggs. It's just easiest for me because I always have saltwater at temp in my mixing station for water changes. The bicarbonates eventually calcify near the end of the rigid air line tho, and I have to pick it out with a bit of metal wire about once a week or it clogs. A soak in vinegar would probably take care of it, but I might do better to just use water and salt instead of saltmix. I then keep the reactors at temp by placing them with a heater in a 2.5g tank filled with tap water. I keep them lit under a single 24w T5 bulb and my light meter currently reads 250 lumens at the water's surface. All of this is overkill of course, but when I was using undecaped eggs, the constant ideal temperature conditions were probably the most important aspect of getting a good hatch-out within 24 hours. Ultimately, the point is to get the best hatch out you can because unhatched eggs will only foul up the water. Simpler setups will work, but they can be more error prone. Some people just use an incandescent bulb a few inches from the surface to both light and warm the water, but incandescent bulbs are a collectors item these days and probably wouldn't work well in my basement in the winter. Also, use 1-liters if you can. I really prefer them. As for the larvae, the lighting isn't really important, but how they feed is. A single point source light placed over the top of the rearing vessel really helps keep them off the surfaces and in the water column. That in turn helps them feed and it makes a big difference. It also helps to concentrate the BBS under the light.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Friday, February 15, 2013 4:24 PM
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Yarrr.... maties! Here be our first treasure! Very Sexy Valentine:  It time I be thank'n my crew and divvy up the loot.  Left to right: Pete, Jetsam, Lagan, Wanda, (the nameless one). I have about a dozen right now with a bunch more on the way. My philosophy is working. Just.. you.. wait..
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Tuesday, February 26, 2013 4:02 PM
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Link
Originally Posted by steelcube
AWESOME!!!!
Link
Originally Posted by steelcube
So, I've got sort of an issue/question.
After I decapsulated brine shrimp eggs I poured the entire contents of the bottle through a strainer, rinsed it with vinegar, then water, and then stored it in saturated brine water in the fridge.
I noticed the last two hatches have had less brine shrimp, and the most recent one had pretty much none. My procedure for hatching hasn't changed. I'm wondering if at a certain point there were only egg shells left in that container (I did shake the container prior to scooping out eggs though).
Since the eggs sink and the shells float after decapsulation, after decapsulating eggs today I scooped out the top (ideally the shells) and just saved what settled (ideally eggs). I'm not sure if this is a good methodology but I'm willing to try.
Thoughts?
After hydrating the eggs for one hour in fresh water, I pour off everything that floats. I've looked at them under a scope and all the floaters are dimpled. That means they failed to hydrate and aren't likely to hatch. After decaping the eggs for 5 minutes, I dump it all in a 2 gallon bucket filled with tap water. That brings the reaction to a crawl while I again pour everything off of the top. I do this 2 or 3 times to eliminate all traces of bleach and don't actually bother with vinegar, tho it may not be a bad idea to use it. I've noticed once the eggs are decaped, you have to be more gentle with them. Hitting them directly with a blast of water from the tap can break them open. Some of the spilled yoke gets poured off with the shells, but it's heavier than the shells and sticky, so some stays behind and just adds unwanted crap. Link
Originally Posted by steelcube
Approx. how long are the newly settled sexy shrimp?
They're nearly a centimeter in length when they settle. Once they morph they actually look a little smaller because they start to curl their tail upward. They also lose most of their color at that point. Here is a new video for a better idea of scale. These are about 5 days post morph and that's a normal sized toothpick in the video. They've developed a nice red color, a few white spots, and of course... their quintessential butt wiggle.  I have 60 so far. More on the way. Link
Originally Posted by Lalani
They're adorable! :happy:
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Tuesday, February 26, 2013 4:04 PM
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Over 130 Sexies and under 15 larvae remaining.
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Tuesday, February 26, 2013 8:56 PM
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Nice! I would like to get back to a tank of these someday. So, if you want to part with any and would consider shipping, let me know....
--Andy, the bucket man. "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Tuesday, February 26, 2013 11:52 PM
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Wednesday, January 18, 20 12 4:45 PM
Originally Posted by Umm_fish?
Start with copepods and/or BBS, from what I've heard. Good luck!
 I don't hear from the guy for a whole year, now he wants my sexies. 
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Re:Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis
Friday, March 22, 2013 8:22 AM
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Link
Originally Posted by metrokat
cute babies!
Link
Originally Posted by Umm_fish? Nice! I would like to get back to a tank of these someday. So, if you want to part with any and would consider shipping, let me know.... Wednesday, January 18, 20 12 4:45 PM
Originally Posted by Umm_fish?
Start with copepods and/or BBS, from what I've heard. Good luck!
I don't hear from the guy for a whole year, now he wants my sexies. If either of you want them, you can have some. I have way too many, and no home to give them. Settlement occurred over the course of about a week. I continued to feed them baby brine shrimp in the kreisel for two weeks after that, so the first to settle spent a total of 3 weeks in the kreisel post metamorphosis. There were 8 larvae that while remaining healthy, refused to settle, which equals about 2% of the total. I took some video about a week ago after transferring them to the grow out tank. How does one get 150 teeny tiny sexies out of a kreisel with only a two inch hole on top? I drained the water to the bottom, then gently sucked them up with what is essentially a very long "turkey baster". I feel this was more gentle than a siphon approach and it resulted in zero losses. The grow out tank is a 2.5g with 50w titanium heater, air-stone, ammonia alert, a pair of digital thermometers, and just a couple bits of live rock rubble.  All filtration is performed with a 75% water change every couple of days. I'm feeding twice a day and have tried a variety of foods: unhatched decapsulated brineshrimp eggs, flake food, and frozen mysis. They appear to do best with the flake food, but will eat all three. I feel the raw eggs were a good transition food for the first couple of days and suspect I'll feed more frozen mysis as the shrimp mature.  Interestingly, by all appearances, they are all male.  Oh, and while doing a water change, I decided to turn off the heater. I damn near forgot to turn it back on before retreating from the cold basement to the warm upstairs. Probably would have awakened the next day to 150 dead shrimp, had I not remembered. Wouldn't that have been fun to report? - I hate heaters.
- I hate having all my eggs in one basket.
Now... Shake dat thang!
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