Breeding Journal, Species: Thor amboinensis

 

We have a winner! 

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

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When I started, I had a large male, a small male, and a few females. The larger male got all of the attention, but then mysteriously disappeared. I gave the smaller male some time to work his magic, but they just weren't interested, so I moved him out and bought more shrimp. All of the new males were still very small, but I put one in the breeder anyway. Despite his diminutive size, the females warmed up to him quickly and have been breeding non-stop ever since. Currently, I have 6 medium to large females and the one still small male.  5 of the females tend to group, while the sixth, having been added later, still tends to remain at a distance, despite being the biggest shrimp.  She and the small male still breed even tho she is 3 times his size.  She also produces the largest clutch.
 
Based on this experience, it would seem the shrimp have personalities and personal preference.  There is an in-group, an out-group, females that like big males, males that like big females, and those that say size doesn't matter.
 
Good luck with it!

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

I came to the conclusion that the reason I wasn't seeing much difference after the first minute was most likely because the eggs were getting entirely decapsulated within that first minute.  Thus for my second test, I decided to slow the reaction down and used a 50% solution.  I took samples from 1 to 4 minutes at 30 second intervals, then looked at them under the scope.  Ah ha!  Now I was seeing change over time, but it didn't appear as tho I had tested long enough.

For my third test, I again used 50% solution and took samples from 4 to 7 minutes at 1 minute intervals.  Below are the results.  Keep in mind that the scope light had to be progressively dimmed to prevent glare as the eggs became increasingly transparent.  Photoshop was used to help correct for this and as a result it is difficult to appreciate the full differences in translucency.



This of course raises the question: what do we want?

Decapsulation serves two primary purposes:

1. Sanitize
2. Hatch Assist

I suspect that first one is mostly accomplished within the first 30 seconds.  Everything after that is to make the egg shell as thin as possible so hatching is easier.  Just don't kill the contents!

At 4 minutes, the shells are only beginning to dissolve and at 7 nearly no shells remain.  Thus, to my own untrained eye, 4 minutes appears too early and 7 minutes appears too late.  Additionally, by 7 minutes I noticed that same raw-egg-yolk like consistency starting to develop in the water.  You can see it; the bubbles start foaming.

For minutes 5 and 6, I performed a hatch-out test.  Using a pipit, I measured out equal samples of a few hundred eggs and placed them in my new reactors at 80*F (26.67* C) for exactly 24 hours.



I performed my usual extraction method... ...first covering the sides of the reactor and placing a high intensity LED light near the base.  This attracts the BBS and helps them to settle before extraction by siphon.  Using this technique, I can pretty reliably collect around 95% of all hatchlings.  Below are the results.  All three photos are of the same two caps and give a clear indication of relative number and distribution.



Hmmm... wasn't seeing any real difference, so gave the reactors another look.  There were slightly but noticeably more remaining BBS in the 5 minute reactor, but perhaps more telling, there were more unhatched eggs in the bottom of the 6 minute reactor.

Based on these results, I've come to the following recommendation.

Decapsulation:

1. Hydrate eggs in fresh water for 1 hour.
2. Equal parts fresh water and regular bleach for 5 minutes.

Results: (click for high-def)


Hope this helps!

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

Holy...


I'm getting hatch-out the...

 



 
I'm reaching feeding density with a single pinch of brine shrimp eggs. 

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

 

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For reals, yo!  The high def photo of the decapsulated eggs above is actually bathing in a small amount of brine water that is at saturation.  I find it's easiest to just keep adding salt to a cup of RO water until it stops dissolving, then I add a pinch of baking soda to keep the pH stable.  Once the eggs are fully drained, I put just enough brine water on them that they become somewhat fluid and find a level when the container is tilted.  When I want to start a batch, I give the cup a swish, a tilt, and then dip my pinch spoon to get the same amount every time.
 
Before I started decaping my eggs, I needed at least 2 pinches of dry eggs to even start approaching feeding density.  I say approach because not all of the BBS disappear between feedings.  Thus the first few feedings allow their density to accumulate.  With my newly decaped eggs, I only need a single spoon full.  I did make a small adjustment to my kreisel which is also helping to retain density, so it's not like I've doubled my hatch-out, but it has clearly and noticeably improved by a significant amount.
 
A single pinch is all I need.
 
Also, I'm getting full hatch-out by hour 18, instead of 24, and exceedingly few duds.  I couldn't feel more confident about my decap and hatch process at this point.
 



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It takes 26 days to reach settlement.  Each day a few are lost, so the goal is to have one left by day 26.  Thus far I've reached day 22.  I took a video of it under the scope: here.
 
I have 6 actively breeding females, and keep them all in a small specialized tank by themselves.  They all mate and release at different times, so I don't bother keeping track of the time between.  Every fews days I find more larvae and toss them into the kreisel.  If you want more specifics, look: here.
 
Incidentally, they prefer to release in the dark.
 
Oh, and don't worry.  They can go a couple days without food.  So hang on to them until the food arrives.
 
Also, if you haven't already, look at my previous posts regarding colonial hydroids: here.

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Cool.  That's a nice simple setup.  I hope it works out for you.  And just so you know, it's widely believed hydroids often find their way in on undecapsulated brine shrimp eggs.
 
Have you started a thread?  Link it!

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Thanks for the link; that's an interesting article.  Any chance you can find the previous edition containing the kreisel build?

Woot!  A couple of my larger females both released [Jan. 23, 2013].  Now I have somewhere close to 400 larvae in the kreisel, all added in the last few days.  I think this is gonna be my lucky brood.
 
 

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

The best of luck with them!  You should document your success with the Artemia in an Artemia journal, or other relevant food topic, so it isn't buried in this shrimp topic, IMHO.

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Ah, thanks!
 
I guess I'm the only one that uses the 6 Gallon Winpak for the drum.
 

 
It's polyethylene and a heck of a lot easier to work with than acrylic.  Unlike the vast majority of nontoxic drum shaped containers available (ie: buckets), these aren't tapered on one end.  Once cut, it rolls straight, as evidenced by my video.
 

 
I bought extras.
 


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Thank you for saying!

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

An excellent point!  I'll try and do that soon.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

I was a little disappointed with my Babies Eating Babies video, so made another.
Babies Eating Babies 2
-- The Sequel --
 
Now with...

 
This video can be hard to watch, so here is an artistic dramatization depicting the horror.
 


The baby eaters are slender, forever hungry, and preying upon the pink masses.  They tend to hang upside down, snatching babies with their claws, then holding them there while taking small bites.
 
Watch to the gruesome end to see the horned one.  }
 

 
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I wish I could give you more definitive answers.



I'm running a different system. So for me, dead larvae just kind of disappear and are eaten by the bio-cycle. But basically, if they're healthy, they should at least twitch when disturbed. I've noticed larvae sitting motionless on the surface at times, but more often they'll sit on the bottom. Not always, just sometimes. I used to worry more about it, but I've since come to the conclusion that they simply aren't hungry. In both cases, they eventually kick off and reenter the water column. And I seem to see the fewest "lazy" larvae right after I've added food. Kind of like they ^jump at the dinner bell.
 
But I could be wrong.
 


Whatever the case, I doubt the dead larvae pose much of a pollution threat when compared to the dead BBS and BBS molts. Again, not sure how much my particular system can tell you about that, but if your water changes are taking care of those, then it should take care of any dead larvae as well. I imagine their bodies break down pretty quickly.

See? Not very definitive. :]
 


I can tell you this. It is typically the goal to keep the larvae in motion as much as possible so that they can eat as much as possible. There are various things that can help or hinder this goal. A point source light from above can help and light from the sides can hinder. In both cases, the larvae are drawn to it and end up either in the water column or on a surface, and they don't find food while on a surface.

Beyond that, I really can't say.
 


Hope this helps.
 
 

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

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To be honest, the only time I've seen that upside-down bottle system used for sexy shrimp, the person ultimately gave up on the project in disgust, without ever settling a sexy. I don't know if that design is based on a successful precursor or not, nor have I ever used it, but I do think it has promise.

For me, this project has been as much about experimenting with my own kreisel design, as it has been about settling a sexy for proof-of-concept. There are simpler designs that have been successful for sexy shrimp. I give Pj86's glass cylinder vase as an example. But that requires daily water changes and simply isn't appropriate for many other species of pelagic larvae. And some designs only work well because the larval cycle is short enough. Once I have my proof of concept, I'm moving on to uncharted waters. The larval cycle for BVN could potentially be very long. So my own design needs to be as robust as possible, and I continue to refine it as I go.

Incidentally, when it comes to the health of the larvae, not all hatchlings are created equal. I suspect under nourished females not only produce fewer, but also smaller young. I could be wrong about that, but one thing I believe I've noticed is that better nourished females produce more energetic young. Specifically, their predator avoidance is much more pronounced. By this I mean the way the larvae try to dart away from suction or siphon. My healthiest hatchlings can be hard to catch for transfer.
 
Which brings me to my next update!  The 250-micron [500-micron] nylon-mesh was insufficient to prevent newly hatched Thor amboinensis larvae from escaping the trap.  I guess direction of flow makes all the difference, because I get away with using 425-micron on my kreisel screen just fine.  I probably lose a few larvae at the earliest stages as a result, but that's less significant than the clogging I would encounter if I were using a smaller micron.  But in the case of the larvae trap on the overflow drain, the flow pushes them directly thru the screen head first.  So I ordered some new nylon and will rebuild the trap using 132-micron [250-micron] mesh.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

I need to make a correction. When I built my larva trap, I mistakenly grabbed the wrong micron mesh. I knew I had both 425 micron and 250 micron, and recognizing one set as the 425, I assumed the other was the 250. But as it turns out, I still had some 500 micron mesh I had completely forgotten, and that is what I ended up using. OOOPS!
 
So now I need to rebuild the trap with the 250 micron, as I had originally intended.  Tho for other's information, the newly hatched larvae can fit thru 425 micron mesh when pushed or pulled thru head or tail first.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

T-minus 8 days and counting.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

Nice!

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

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The more you look, the more you'll find.

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I was losing about a dozen a day a few days ago.  Not sure why, just seemed to be a bit of a developmental hump at that point, but it appears to have past and losses have really leveled out.
 
I have a couple that appear to have settled, but no metamorphosis at this point.
 
The MBI badges indicate your successes.  No idea about the points; ask CMPenny.  And... LINK YOUR THREAD!  ...Please.

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While it is always best to try provide ideal conditions, fact is brine shrimp eggs will hatch in much less than ideal conditions.
 
I always use freshly mixed Oceanic sea water already at temp when I add the eggs.  It's just easiest for me because I always have saltwater at temp in my mixing station for water changes.  The bicarbonates eventually calcify near the end of the rigid air line tho, and I have to pick it out with a bit of metal wire about once a week or it clogs.  A soak in vinegar would probably take care of it, but I might do better to just use water and salt instead of saltmix.  I then keep the reactors at temp by placing them with a heater in a 2.5g tank filled with tap water.  I keep them lit under a single 24w T5 bulb and my light meter currently reads 250 lumens at the water's surface.
 
All of this is overkill of course, but when I was using undecaped eggs, the constant ideal temperature conditions were probably the most important aspect of getting a good hatch-out within 24 hours.
 
Ultimately, the point is to get the best hatch out you can because unhatched eggs will only foul up the water. Simpler setups will work, but they can be more error prone.  Some people just use an incandescent bulb a few inches from the surface to both light and warm the water, but incandescent bulbs are a collectors item these days and probably wouldn't work well in my basement in the winter.
 
Also, use 1-liters if you can.  I really prefer them.
 
As for the larvae, the lighting isn't really important, but how they feed is.  A single point source light placed over the top of the rearing vessel really helps keep them off the surfaces and in the water column.  That in turn helps them feed and it makes a big difference.  It also helps to concentrate the BBS under the light.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

Yarrr.... maties!  Here be our first treasure!

Very Sexy Valentine:


It time I be thank'n my crew and divvy up the loot.


Left to right: Pete, Jetsam, Lagan, Wanda, (the nameless one).

I have about a dozen right now with a bunch more on the way.  My philosophy is working.  Just.. you.. wait..

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

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After hydrating the eggs for one hour in fresh water, I pour off everything that floats.  I've looked at them under a scope and all the floaters are dimpled.  That means they failed to hydrate and aren't likely to hatch.
 
After decaping the eggs for 5 minutes, I dump it all in a 2 gallon bucket filled with tap water.  That brings the reaction to a crawl while I again pour everything off of the top.  I do this 2 or 3 times to eliminate all traces of bleach and don't actually bother with vinegar, tho it may not be a bad idea to use it.
I've noticed once the eggs are decaped, you have to be more gentle with them.  Hitting them directly with a blast of water from the tap can break them open.  Some of the spilled yoke gets poured off with the shells, but it's heavier than the shells and sticky, so some stays behind and just adds unwanted crap.

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They're nearly a centimeter in length when they settle.  Once they morph they actually look a little smaller because they start to curl their tail upward.  They also lose most of their color at that point.
 
Here is a new video for a better idea of scale.  These are about 5 days post morph and that's a normal sized toothpick in the video.  They've developed a nice red color, a few white spots, and of course... their quintessential butt wiggle.
 

 

 
I have 60 so far.  More on the way.

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©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

Over 130 Sexies and under 15 larvae remaining.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

Nice! I would like to get back to a tank of these someday. So, if you want to part with any and would consider shipping, let me know....

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Wednesday, January 18, 2012 4:45 PM

 

 
I don't hear from the guy for a whole year, now he wants my sexies. 

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

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Wednesday, January 18, 2012 4:45 PM



I don't hear from the guy for a whole year, now he wants my sexies.


If either of you want them, you can have some. I have way too many, and no home to give them.

Settlement occurred over the course of about a week. I continued to feed them baby brine shrimp in the kreisel for two weeks after that, so the first to settle spent a total of 3 weeks in the kreisel post metamorphosis. There were 8 larvae that while remaining healthy, refused to settle, which equals about 2% of the total.

I took some video about a week ago after transferring them to the grow out tank. How does one get 150 teeny tiny sexies out of a kreisel with only a two inch hole on top? I drained the water to the bottom, then gently sucked them up with what is essentially a very long "turkey baster". I feel this was more gentle than a siphon approach and it resulted in zero losses.
The grow out tank is a 2.5g with 50w titanium heater, air-stone, ammonia alert, a pair of digital thermometers, and just a couple bits of live rock rubble.



All filtration is performed with a 75% water change every couple of days.

I'm feeding twice a day and have tried a variety of foods: unhatched decapsulated brineshrimp eggs, flake food, and frozen mysis. They appear to do best with the flake food, but will eat all three. I feel the raw eggs were a good transition food for the first couple of days and suspect I'll feed more frozen mysis as the shrimp mature.



Interestingly, by all appearances, they are all male.

Oh, and while doing a water change, I decided to turn off the heater. I damn near forgot to turn it back on before retreating from the cold basement to the warm upstairs. Probably would have awakened the next day to 150 dead shrimp, had I not remembered. Wouldn't that have been fun to report?
 

1. I hate heaters.
2. I hate having all my eggs in one basket.

 
Now...
Shake dat thang!

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

You have to admit that they are hard to resist. That's a great photo of them on the coral skeleton!

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Took me two years to take that photo. :]


Took this photo today.  At a glance, I'd say they are about 5 or 6 times larger than in the previous photo.  It's getting just a little crowded for 150 shrimp.



They've done well on the flake food and occasional mysis.  They are absolutely voracious and I am astounded by their capacity to continuously consume.  They must be eating their own molts as well, because it's rare that I even see one.

They probably need about one more week in the grow-out tank, possibly two for the smallest, so of course I've been trying to find them homes.  Guess what I've discovered?  I'll give you a hint.  It just might be the single greatest barrier to the growth of this particular hobby.

Online retailers such as LiveAquaria must get huge shipping discounts due to their volume.  A 5 pound package via FedEx Overnight from Spokane to New York is over $100.  Even Spokane to Colorado isn't much better, at around $80.  While it was nice to think I might send some shrimp to a few friends, it's just not very practical.  I would have to ship them in the hundreds before it would be cost effective.

There are 4 saltwater shops in town or nearby and each is willing to buy about a dozen sexies at $3 each.  While that may ease the overcrowding, fact is, that'll still leave me with a whole lot of sexy.

Perhaps I should open a club?



Good thing I'm not in this for the money.

Incidentally, I have now accidentally left the heater off overnight on two separate occasions.  Temp went as low as 65 degrees for as long as 6 hours in both events.  While fortunately no shrimp were lost, I did notice that when the water is that cold, they completely stop eating.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

 

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I don't believe you.  But that's okay, I wrote it for the archives.  Thanks for looking it over, and no they started sexually differentiating about a week and a half ago.  Looks to be about 50/50, but I can't say I've counted.

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Yeah it was fun.

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You are very welcome.  Please link your thread if you do!

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©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

Fair enough, I'll explain.
 
Two years ago I became completely fed up with Red Planaria Flatworms (Convolutriloba retrogemma).
 

 
After many experiments, I also became fed up with their prescribed cure: Flatworm-Exit.
 

 
I came to the conclusion that not only is FWE a poison I no longer wish to add to my tanks, but that its efficacy will continue to decline over the coming years, because we as hobbyists are inadvertently breeding more resistant strains in the petri dishes we call aquariums.  When that time comes will we have few options.  Thus I decided I wanted to try and be the first person to successfully breed (settle and cue) their only natural predator: Blue Velvet Nudibranch (Chelidonura varians).
 

 
I also decided I wanted to cast a net rather than just a thread.  Which is to say, this entire conversation is posted and cross-posted to 3 separate sites: nano-reef, mbisite, 4everb.  That last one is mostly for my own record keeping and is mostly the result of my having been banned from RC and RP for simply trying to cross-post content between them.  I then got banned from ModernReefKeeping for reasons never explained to me, thus creating my own forum from which to cast my nets seemed a sensible solution.  Be warned: if you visit my site, you will be subjected to my personal life philosophy.
 
Nano-reef was recommended to me because of its background in breeding Sexy Shrimp (Thor amboinensis) and MBIsite because of its background in breeding everything else.
 

 
Neither has much information on Blue Velvet Nudibranch, but both the Sexy Shrimp and BVN share a similar pelagic larva life cycle, and it is the larval phase that is the stumbling block to success.  Thus the most sensible first step for me as a first time marine breeder has been to learn, refine, and master the breeding of Sexy shrimp.  They really are a great place to start for anyone interested in raising pelagic larvae.
 

 
I then started construction of a kreisel aquarium, using only items that are easy to find, obtain, and work with.  I've given both links and tutorials such that others may choose to pursue this endeavor in cooperation.  It is my hope that someone may eventually join me. :]
 

 
I like riddles, multiple meanings, and hidden jokes and have stuffed this thread full of them.  Anyone who does try to follow, will UNDERSTAND this thread, more than you know.  Understanding me... is another matter.
 
I have now concluded my proof-of-concept and have every confidence in my kreisel design, myself as a marine breeder, and in my personal life philosophy which got me here.
 
All the other stuff just keeps me entertained.  AND THAT, is how I do it.
 
MOVING ON...

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

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It could work, but it's less direct.  The Thor larvae will feed on both the newly hatched BBS as well as the rotifers.  The various algaes will only feed the BBS and rotifers, if I'm not mistaken.  And the adult brine shrimp, while harmless, will only take up space and eventually foul the water.
 
Realize, achieving feeding density isn't easy.  Typically you want only the ideal food, in its ideal state, so that you know it will get eaten and be as calorie packed as possible.  Even then you still need a density of 3 to 5 BBS per CC of water.  Do you know what that looks like?  It's an insane amount of organics to be adding to the system once or even twice daily.
 
Rather than giving food to the food source while feeding the larvae, it is typically more advantages to feed a greater density of the intended food source.  BBS still have their yolk sacs and that makes them ideal.  Whereas if you're feeding them, then they're burning their own calories and have less to give.  Also, they molt as they grow, which fouls the water.
 
If you have a thread, please link it.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

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I bought the mesh from Amazon; there's a post about it somewhere back in the thread. Feel free to use the search function.

I'm using a 2.5g for grow out, but the larvae were raised in a homemade kreisel made from a 10g tank, while the breeding tank was a 2.5g display connected to a 5g sump. Which system do you wish to know more about?

Can you explain your own system in greater detail?
 
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Can you take some photos?

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

♪Ka-Ching!♪




+
♪Ka-Ching!♪




Equals...





I'm more or less giving them away.  I'm keeping a handful for myself, but still have about 75 to find homes for.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

I'm glad you are raking in the bucks. Sorry that I can't swing that kind of shipping money right now. The kid is in braces and demands vacations and whatnot.
 
I'm looking forward to your nudibranch try. Just so you know (and I'm sure you already know already), their larvae are more like pelagic snail larvae than shrimp larvae. My guess would be that the real difficulty will lie in producing enough food to keep the broodstock going. I'd guess that's where most of your tank space will be. Just food production.
 
Good luck!

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

 
Care to elaborate?  I expect a longer larval cycle and phyto for feeding, but what else should I know?
 
 
For real.  My culture dish has been... educational. :]
 
I won't be jumping to BVN right away.  My family and I are moving this summer and there is much we need to do to prepare.  In the mean time, I'm going to experiment more with flatworm, phyto, and possibly rotifer cultures.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

Slugs and snails are mollusks and have (very) similar larvae. Slugs go through a veliger phase with a shell just like snails. It was really eye-opening to me to take a look at baby nudibranchs in the egg casings and have them look just like snails. Shrimps have shrimpy sort of larvae and they are very different. For example, if I had to guess, I would probably say that you are looking at live phytoplankton as a first food (if your nudibranch eats as a veliger, some don't). Shrimp, as you know, are very good at catching big prey items and chewing on them. (As also opposed to fish, who can't chew and need to have prey small enough that they can swallow them whole.)
 
But, I have no clue what the blue velvet's larval development cycle is like. Snails and slugs can be all over the place in terms of whether and how long they are in the plankton, as well as whether and what cues they need to induce settlement.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Stuff for your information:
 
First, I'm sad to report that it looks like the sea slug forum is gone. That's is a ton of good information that may be lost forever.
 
Links:
 
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic19611.aspx
 
You could write to this guy and see if he ever followed through:
 
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/5/short
 
Other than that, I'm not having much luck on searches for people who work on slug larvae for that specific animal. Sorry.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

 LOVING IT! 
Realize... I'll get to measure things that can't be found anywhere else on the internet!
 

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

On the other hand, all kinds of fun articles on nudibranch larval development in general:
 
http://scholar.google.com...AQ&ved=0CC4QgQMwAA [/url]
 
http://www.asnailsodyssey.com/LEARNABOUT/NUDIBRANCH/nudiHatc.php
 
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10750-004-5708-z#page-1

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

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They aren't my tanks. Those are two different local fish stores, with two different prices. As a courtesy, I removed the prices.

One store isn't used to dealing in saltwater and has priced them lower for the quick sale. The other is primarily saltwater and is used to catering to wealthier clientele.

Helps to shop around I suppose.

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How many saltwater LFS do think this town has? If it isn't one, then it's probably the other.

I had actually meant to post a photo of the storefronts, but forgot to, then decided it wasn't worth fixing. Please realize, it takes time and effort to snap photos, work them in photoshop, put together a post, and then cross post it across 3 different sites with 3 different kinds of forum software. The image tags aren't even the same, since the upgrade. So you'll just have to forgive me if my removal of the prices seems unnecessary.

But honestly guys...
 

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

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Cool! I hope it works out. Sounds like you know what you're doing, but if you have any questions, I'm happy to help.


The larval cycle is supposed to be 26 days long, but actual results may vary. Some will settle a few days early while the rest will settle over the course of about a week. And of course, a few will refuse to settle despite being healthy.

I continued to feed mine in the kreisel for about 2 weeks after the first settlement before moving them all to the grow out tank. That means the first to settle spent a total of 3 weeks in the kreisel post metamorphosis, and the last to settle spent at least 2 weeks.

The flake food I've been using is 4-in-1 Deliflake (For Community Tanks). It came to me from brineshrimpdirect.com and was thrown in for free when I ordered brineshrimp eggs. Or maybe it was an accident, I really don't know. But that's what I had on hand, so that's what I used. I've since switched mostly to mysis.
 
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I know the feeling. :]

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That's fine. They'll just settle on the bottom and morph.
 
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I didn't bother to cycle my grow-out tank. Mine is bare-bottom and I just do about 90% water change every couple of days. No other filtration.

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Hard to know what the problem is. It could be water conditions. Have you tested? Or possibly feeding density. If they aren't eating enough, they'll take longer.

How active are they? Do they twitch or dart when disturbed? Do they sit idle on the glass?

I have no idea if this actually works, but I've read that others have found mature tank water to be helpful. While mature tank water can contain hydroids and other pests, this shouldn't matter in the short term.

Try it and tell me if it helps!

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You won't fail. You might quit, but that's something different. Don't quit.

Do some water tests. If pH is the problem, it'll tell you.

The worms sound like either vermetid snails or spionid worms. Spionids make their tube out of sand and vermetids look more like they're made of keratin. While they are filter feeders, both reproduce relatively slowly. They are also quite easy to find and remove.

Do be careful about adding too much mature water. It can be nutrient heavy and your fry tank probably doesn't have as robust of a biocycle.

Congrats on making it this far. Each step in the right direction is a complete success unto itself. By the time you reach your imagined destination, it's importance is largely lost to the experience of getting there, and entirely peripheral to what comes next.

This is it. If you aren't enjoying it already, then you're missing the point.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

=== TREASURE HUNT ===

This game is open to all and here is how it is played.* Answer the five riddles below to see a photo of what's hidden behind the cardboard on my kreisel.  Answers must be submitted in full, in order, no extras. Incorrect answers will be quoted with a strike-through. First person to correctly answer all five, WINS!
 

1. Show me step zero.
2. Why is 5 afraid?
3. Who are Jetsam & Lagan?
4. Who's the short one?
5. What is the answer to life the universe and everything?

 
 

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

 No, but I love the answer!
Hint: "show."


Close...


Yes, but the question is who?
Hint: think politics.







Thank you for playing.
Please try again tomorrow.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

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Hey, good work!
 
They'll look just like miniature sexy shrimp in a few days. You won't believe they can be that tiny.
 
I can't tell you if you should turn the flow down or not, but I kind of figure, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 
I'm still betting feeding density is why it took 39 days.

PHOTOS!

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My grow out had absolutely no filtration. I just did 90% water changes every couple of days. Realize, nearly all of your bioload is going to come from the food, not the shrimp. I found overcrowding to be the greater concern.
 
I tried live BBS the first two days, but quickly concluded that after metamorphosis and outside the kreisel, they stop filter feeding and start scavenging. I added unhatched decapped for a couple days tho, just to ensure a smooth transition. Flake food is ultimately what you really want, and just about any flake food should suffice. As they mature, you'll want to phase in meaty foods, such as pellets or mysis. Mysis is the better of the two.
 
Nice photo! Good work and good luck.

Oh, and I should add, bristleworms are your friend. I guess I lied when I said I had no filtration. I did put a single golf ball sized chunk of live rock rubble in my 2.5g, and it contained 4 small bristleworms. They were of real benefit because it seems like the only way to keep the shrimp fed is to constantly add too much food. The bristleworms played a significant role in cleaning up leftovers, and there were always leftovers because it was like trying to feed a big party. Everyone is eating at any given moment, there are half eaten portions on discarded plates, and no one seems to know where they left their drink. The worms played busboy and boy did they get fat.

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Worry less, feed and water change more.

I followed the Mexican restaurant serving size rule of thumb: if there isn't food left on the plate, then the serving size should be larger. If you're doing even a 75% water change every 2 days, then left over food shouldn't really matter.

I also recommend not cleaning the glass. You'll get a nice bacterial mat.
Honestly, just keep throwing food in until they seem to stop eating. But since you are using a 2.5g for 85 shrimp, you'll need to remove some so the rest keep growing. I've really gotten the sense that over crowding stunts growth.

You're doing great! Congratulations.

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An amusing statement. I can only wonder how many have come and gone and never posted, for fear of bugging me. It seems lost on many that I have chosen a forum for my medium.
 
So who are your favorite philosophers? I'm fond of Nel Noddings.

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You're welcome.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===

It's going to be awhile before I can take the next step in this project.  In the meantime, I want to give an update on my Keyhole Limpets (Diodora cayenensis).

Uncertain of their dietary needs, I decided to place them in the display, the fuge, and the flatworm culture dish.  Sadly, none of them survived.  While they did eat some algae, they also spent a lot of time grazing unseen food from the live rock -- possibly bacterial colonies -- and never touched any of my corals.  I assumed that the home aquarium is simply an unsuitable environment for these limpets and moved on.  But then...

A few weeks later I found a baby limpet, smaller than a pea.  I don't know exactly where it came from since it is highly unlikely they reproduced in my tank, but it must have at least been hiding under one of the adult's shells when I acclimated them.  I've been watching it grow, now the size of an adult, and  even better, I HAVE TWO!

Both have been doing well and now my new theory is that the adults probably don't live very long once they reach full size.  We'll see.

©2013 Ryan F. Mercer -All Rights Reserved.
          === TREASURE HUNT ===