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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Thursday, October 27, 2011 1:18 PM
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 Originally Posted by EasterEggs
Hmmm...I guess "we" have some experimenting to do, I hope it is possible at hobby level.
Absolutely.We found a particular problem here at the hobby level that larger breeders haven´t noticed or addressed:under our conditions pelagic eggs fail to develope into feeding larvae. This happens to Kate,Andy,Arc and myself.And I don´t put Alex in the list because mandarins are the only pelagic spawners that can be raised. I imagine that if something is found that works for one of us,it will work for everybody,and that will be a big step forward into the future of breeding. 
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Thursday, October 27, 2011 8:11 PM
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Has anyone tried to get "them" to talk about their successes with dwarf Angels? Maybe they don't want to publish their secrets, but maybe they would be willing to share a bit on these forums? I refer to them as "them" because I'm not sure what they are...organizations? Scientists? Hatcheries?
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Thursday, October 27, 2011 8:52 PM
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I don't think it's entirely a secret. They have the room and money to use really large volumes of water. I think that's the main issue. There was a PDF somewhere, though, that talked about an institution's first year or two of work in trying to raise ... maybe tangs? ... and they talked about having to get past this hurdle, too, from what I recall. I don't believe they went into detail, though.
--Andy, the bucket man. "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Friday, October 28, 2011 9:43 AM
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Hmmm...well that doesn't seem that difficult then. It would take some money and some space. What about the details though? Upwellers in large volumes of water? Or something else? There has to be some information out there. Who was raising them in Hawaii? Maybe we just need to start asking questions...?
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Friday, October 28, 2011 10:12 AM
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Friday, October 28, 2011 10:35 AM
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--Andy, the bucket man. "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Friday, October 28, 2011 1:35 PM
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Friday, October 28, 2011 9:13 PM
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Thanks for the links guys. I'm all over it. 
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Wednesday, November 2, 2011 1:34 PM
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And Mindy,if you finished with the above,you should see this: http://www.oceanicinstitute.org/pdfs/Marine_Ornamentals_Research_a31979.pdf and I´m not sure if reading this is encouraging. A well known and well funded Institute,located in the best possible place. Staffed by experienced and well known researchers;Laidley,Shields,Chat. 19 tanks of 1,000 L each Parvo.cultures. Many,many thousand of eggs produced daily. Results of this project based on such a sheer set of means?:Some "dozens" of juvs,and not without some problems. How do we hobbyists stand in front of this?
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Wednesday, November 2, 2011 4:42 PM
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If you feel discouraged, just keep in mind that Frank Baensh is their "neighbor", has done several species and is still on business making history.  If we only knew what he does...
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Wednesday, November 2, 2011 5:01 PM
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Originally Posted by How do we hobbyists stand in front of this? Innovation based on cooperation and shear numbers. Like we always do.
--Andy, the bucket man. "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Wednesday, November 2, 2011 6:54 PM
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Yes Luis, I finished reading all that, and will read this new link today. You will get it Luis, I have a feeling about this one.
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Thursday, November 3, 2011 1:30 PM
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Originally Posted by aomont If you feel discouraged, just keep in mind that Frank Baensh is their "neighbor", has done several species and is still on business making history. If we only knew what he does... Ai ta certo,meu amigo Frank B.could raise some Centropyge at about the same time as the OI (they both argue about who was the first) and he made it in a garage fish room,i.e. at the hobby level. Yet he is a pro researcher on the subject and probably the 3 hawaian parties who acomplished this, interchanged some info,though this was not admitted. And Frank collected and used local wild plankton.In this respect,he was a perfect replica of Martin M.,who was at the same time attempting the cherubfish in Fl.without success...
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Monday, November 7, 2011 1:28 PM
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Luis, The Ocean Institute link you gave above very briefly gave two problem areas that they had to address to get the delicate pro-larvae to survive past day 2 - water quality and turbulence. As you are using completely still water, turbulence shouldn't be it. But what about water quality? Either you or Andy had said that bacterial blooms are likely a problem. What are your sterilization protocols? My guess is that a major difference between hobbyists and research scientists is the level of stringency in sterilization. I work in a microbiology lab and we make a clear distinction between disinfection and sterilization. Hydrogen peroxide does not sterilize anything, it merely disinfects. When we sterilize glassware, etc it has to be autoclaved. Have any hobbyists attempted to autoclave glassware and perhaps culture water prior to inoculating it with "disinfected" eggs? Just a thought. Good luck and good work. John
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Monday, November 7, 2011 3:31 PM
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John,indeed,a sterile or at least Vibrio less prolarval incubating medium will be a sound way to rule out the bacterial factor. I have treated the water with Cl,and given the eggs a 1hr bath of formaline 1ml/gal or H2O2 1ml/L. The catch is that the prolarvae must then be kept alive for 5+ days,and therefore you need something that kills bacteriae but not the prolarvae.I could do this with 1/10 of the above doses. The obvious difference between hobbyists and commercial/academic facilities is that they use Large tanks and NSW.This is what we need to explain; why large tanks are better. It seems size does matter after all 
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Tuesday, November 8, 2011 4:34 AM
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Following along with interest, and excuse me if I ask a bit of a silly question, but why cant uv be used? I understand that water movement has to be nil or as near to nil as possible, but why cant the flow through the uv be really slow, and then sent back to the eggs via downwellers etc?
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Tuesday, November 8, 2011 8:37 AM
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Indeed UV can and should be used. A larger UV with slightly reduced flow rates will take care of a lot of the bacteria in the tank. I've got a diagram of something that might make it easier for a hobbyist to build I'll post once my system is set up. Granted space is an issue for most of us, but this should be pretty easy for most folks to build. The biggest hurdle is that nature just doesn't want every fish to survive - hence the difficulty of raising fish with the limited numbers that we have. 1% of 1000 is 10. Those 10 then need great water, food sources that are compatible with all the different mouth sizes, the right temps, etc. Meta will claim 50-75% of those (averages of course) while those 2-3 leftover still have to find the right sized food to eat, not get caught in a corner, have zero defects, etc. It's a hard task to accomplish. Not impossible, just very hard.
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Tuesday, November 8, 2011 9:55 AM
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Sorry. Late to the party again. Story of my life lately. Big to-press deadline tomorrow and I have 4-5 books that are still trying to make it. Fortunately, I'm at the point where a lot of my work is done and now I'm waiting on others. I'll be trying a little different approach on my next runs. I have a 20 gal. tank already cycled with a pump inside for circulation. The eggs will be disinfected then transferred to a downweller inside this tank. So, I'm hoping that if accumulating ammonia is the problem, the cycled tank will help. I'm hoping that the already-present population of good bacteria will help take up space where bad bacteria can live and will help slow down the growth of bad bacterial populations somewhat. I'm hoping that the extra water volume will help mitigate any problems with large fluctuations in water parameters like when I use small hatching vessels. I'm hoping that circulation in the main tank will help solve stagnancy issues without creating turbulence in the downweller that will hurt the eggs. Basically, I'm doing a lot of hoping. But I guess that's what we're here for.
--Andy, the bucket man. "Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Tuesday, November 8, 2011 10:45 AM
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Thanks for the opinions An UV experimental system is the next step in my plan.
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Re:Incubating Centropyge eggs and prolarvae.
Tuesday, November 8, 2011 11:58 AM
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One thing I totally forgot that WILL make a differnce: Pro-biotics! Yep, I mean those you can buy off the shelf. I've cycled tanks with nothing but 2-3 capsules a day for a week. Put fish in and everything is groovy. There are a few papers out there dealing with it, mostly for the foodfish industry. Basically its put the good stuff in, let it grow and hope it out competes the "bad" stuff. If anyone feels the need to test it - please do! Grab a 10G tank and drop 2-3 capsules a day for a week into the tank thats running any kind of filter and try it out. Heck even if the tank is up and running it can make a difference. Why? Mostly because we usually are dealing with small volumes of water. In a 100+ gallon system obviously you'd use a whole heck of a lot more, and have it take longer before results would show up too. Ill see if I can't find the papers and post em (or at least the abstract of them) after class tonight.
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