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•  Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Banggai Cardinal Eggs

  Change Page: 12 > | Showing page 1 of 2, messages 1 to 20 of 29 - powered by ASPPlayground.NET Forum Trial Version Author Message EasterEggs Total Posts : 1946 Scores: 19 Reward points : 735 Joined: 9/22/2011 Location: Saskatoon, SK, CA Status: offline MBI: 590 Pnts MBI Site: Marine Breeding Initiative (MBI) Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Banggai Cardinal Eggs Saturday, May 19, 2012 10:33 AM (permalink) 0 Well, I officially gave up on my male Banggai after he swallowed his third batch on just mere day 2.  Just yesterday I came across someone mentioning nitrate in the 10-20 ppm range can cause this issue, so I'm going to research this more as my broodstock system is usually around the 20-30 ppm mark.   In the meantime, I went to the fish room about 7 pm lastnight to see the male Bangaii holding some eggs.  He doesn't even seem to make the first night very well without consuming (or spitting?) the eggs, so after his last failed attempt I planned to strip his next batch as soon as I found him holding.   So lastnight around 8 pm I collected approximately 38 eggs.  I put the eggs into a San Francisco Bay pop bottle brine shrimp hatchery with approximately 600-750 mL of water from one of my reef aquariums (1.026 and nitrate undetectable).  I filtered through a 53 micron sieve, sterilized it with bleach, and dechlorinated.  I turned the air down fairly low - just enough to keep the eggs from settling on the bottom - and put a lid on it.  I also added one drop of methylene blue dye in hopes of it preventing egg fungus.  I then set the "tumbler" into the sump of my broodstock system to keep the temperature steady right near 80F (26C).  I plan to do 50% waterchanges every few days, and keep MB in the water.   Now, this is far from high tech, but I want to keep this simple if possible, so I'm starting with the simplest setup I think might work.  I have antibiotics and formalin on hand to try in the future if the MB proves to be unsuccessful.  I will take this project as far as needed until I achieve consistent and reproducible success.   I actually purchased 4 small adult Banggai Cardinals a few days ago in hopes to get at least one more pair going.  I'm going to try the "vent method" for sexing them once I can get their bellies full.  Right now they are just being weaned onto frozen foods and then I will medicate them with PraziPro for a week.   Wish me luck!  Feel free to make some suggestions, although at this point I suppose "waiting to see what happens" is probably the only suggestion because if this works I'm stickin to it!  Haha!  It seems there aren't many people successful with AI for Banggai Cardinals, and I've only had moderate success in the past. In the net the eggs didn't stick together In the tumbler the eggs stick together     This is how they look this morning, I'm assuming the blue ones aren't fertile? <message edited by EasterEggs on Saturday, May 19, 2012 4:00 PM>   #1 KathyL Total Posts : 2639 Scores: 13 Reward points : 1504 Joined: 6/6/2010 Location: St. Louis, MO, US Status: offline MBI: 1605 Pnts MBI Site: Marine Aquarium Societies of North America Re:Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Bangaii Cardinal Eggs Saturday, May 19, 2012 1:11 PM (permalink) 0 Pretty picture.  I'm thinking that the blue ones are fertile, as there seem to be eyes…not sure.   #2 EasterEggs Total Posts : 1946 Scores: 19 Reward points : 735 Joined: 9/22/2011 Location: Saskatoon, SK, CA Status: offline MBI: 590 Pnts MBI Site: Marine Breeding Initiative (MBI) Re:Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Bangaii Cardinal Eggs Saturday, May 19, 2012 1:25 PM (permalink) 0 Kathy, that's what I thought at first too, but then I was thinking they shouldn't have eyes yet anyway since Bangaii eggs are so slow to develop.  I read somewhere that MB will cause dead eggs to turn blue.  These two things led me to believe the blue ones are dead.  I haven't removed any eggs yet because I am not sure which ones are good.  Haha!   #3 EasterEggs Total Posts : 1946 Scores: 19 Reward points : 735 Joined: 9/22/2011 Location: Saskatoon, SK, CA Status: offline MBI: 590 Pnts MBI Site: Marine Breeding Initiative (MBI) Re:Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Bangaii Cardinal Eggs Saturday, May 19, 2012 7:48 PM (permalink) 0 That problem solved itself, the blue ones indeed were duds. They disintegrated sometime today clouding the water in the tumbler and stinking. So I did a 100% waterchange just now, and accidentally added 2 drops of MB instead of 1. I counted 24 eggs remaining, but they are difficult to count all clumped together.  There were a few eggs that were loners (free floating by themselves) rather than clumped together, and I noticed all the loner eggs died today.  Maybe as singles they get bashed around by the air too much?  If this tumbler doesn't work, my next plan is to try water tumbling rather than air tumbling. <message edited by EasterEggs on Saturday, May 19, 2012 9:50 PM>   #4 KathyL Total Posts : 2639 Scores: 13 Reward points : 1504 Joined: 6/6/2010 Location: St. Louis, MO, US Status: offline MBI: 1605 Pnts MBI Site: Marine Aquarium Societies of North America Re:Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Bangaii Cardinal Eggs Saturday, May 19, 2012 8:16 PM (permalink) 0 I think 2 drops is better than one.  I have some orchid dottys that are tumbling right now, and I hope for a hatch tonight.   #5 EasterEggs Total Posts : 1946 Scores: 19 Reward points : 735 Joined: 9/22/2011 Location: Saskatoon, SK, CA Status: offline MBI: 590 Pnts MBI Site: Marine Breeding Initiative (MBI) Re:Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Bangaii Cardinal Eggs Saturday, May 19, 2012 8:56 PM (permalink) 0 Oh, good luck Kathy!  2 drops it is!    #6 EasterEggs Total Posts : 1946 Scores: 19 Reward points : 735 Joined: 9/22/2011 Location: Saskatoon, SK, CA Status: offline MBI: 590 Pnts MBI Site: Marine Breeding Initiative (MBI) Re:Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Bangaii Cardinal Eggs Sunday, May 20, 2012 9:16 AM (permalink) 0 Not working so well, I think only about 10 eggs intact in there now. I'm thinking the air is too rough for the eggs.   #7 mPedersen Total Posts : 3450 Scores: 29 Reward points : 1376 Joined: 2/27/2009 Location: Duluth, MN, US Status: offline MBI: 4975 Pnts MBI Site: Lake Superior Marine Aquarium Club Re:Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Bangaii Cardinal Eggs Sunday, May 20, 2012 8:05 PM (permalink) 0 I've never had success with air-driven tumbling, nor have I had success with eggs pulled this early.  I used a fine-tuned water-driven tumbler.  I also see the above setup and wonder - how are you controlling the heat / temp?     #8 EasterEggs Total Posts : 1946 Scores: 19 Reward points : 735 Joined: 9/22/2011 Location: Saskatoon, SK, CA Status: offline MBI: 590 Pnts MBI Site: Marine Breeding Initiative (MBI) Re:Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Bangaii Cardinal Eggs Monday, May 21, 2012 10:36 AM (permalink) 4 Matt, yeah I didn't think it would work, but I had too much going on and didn't have anything setup to tumble.  I know that tumbling eggs this young is very difficult (has it even been done before?), but I also know that leaving the eggs with him was as good as chucking the eggs in the garbage, so I figured I would try!  :p  I was setting the tumbler in the sump of my broodstock tank to maintain temperature.  I just put it on the shelf to take pictures.  I have 2 weeks now until their next spawn for me to get together a water driven tumbler, and have a kriesel-like design in mind.  In the meantime, I bought 4 single, young adult wild (ugh) Banggai to try to pair myself.   I feel that egg tumbling is likely the only commercially viable way of reproducing Banggai, so I'm going to persist.  Handy as it is (not), I have the perfect pair to force me into early egg tumbling adventures.  <message edited by EasterEggs on Monday, May 21, 2012 1:17 PM>   #9 Barelycuda Total Posts : 186 Scores: 2 Reward points : 829 Joined: 3/20/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA, US Status: offline MBI Site: Marine Breeding Initiative (MBI) Re:Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Bangaii Cardinal Eggs Monday, May 21, 2012 2:16 PM (permalink) 0 I have a very limited experience AI bangaii eggs.  My best attempt was to pull them at day four and I got them to survive until day 17 until I blew them out of the incubator.  I do like your idea of the incubator as that style was my next trial.  The one thing I was going to do was to use the same setup as you except feed the incubator with an aqua lifter instead of air.  I haven't been able to try it out yet as I lost my male bangaii.   #10 EasterEggs Total Posts : 1946 Scores: 19 Reward points : 735 Joined: 9/22/2011 Location: Saskatoon, SK, CA Status: offline MBI: 590 Pnts MBI Site: Marine Breeding Initiative (MBI) Re:Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Bangaii Cardinal Eggs Monday, May 21, 2012 4:47 PM (permalink) 0 Aqua Lifter is a good idea.  I should see if I can find one around here.  I was just going to buy a Mini Jet 202 (or whatever the numbers are).  Nice thing about the Mini Jets is they are easily adjustable.  Sorry to hear about your male...that is so frustrating and saddening.  Unfortunately, my male won't hold longer than about 36 hours with most of the spawn gone by 24 hours so I have a small window to work with. <message edited by EasterEggs on Monday, May 21, 2012 6:48 PM>   #11 CaptCrash Total Posts : 660 Scores: 0 Reward points : 1296 Joined: 10/23/2011 Location: Perth, WA, AU Status: offline MBI: 2050 Pnts MBI Site: Marine Breeding Initiative (MBI) Re:Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Bangaii Cardinal Eggs Monday, May 21, 2012 8:51 PM (permalink) 0 EasterEggs, would the idea shown in this video work for you?   I have not tried it, but I was going to look at doing something similar. Flow can be adjusted by the pump strength and position. Various container shapes could be used.   The other similar principal I have seen, is using an air driven tumbler, with the airline above the egg compartment.  The egg compartment is screened at both ends and is open at the bottom.  This causes an updraft which the eggs tumble in.   Im only just starting to look into this so, its just idea's not actual working items.   #12 CaptCrash Total Posts : 660 Scores: 0 Reward points : 1296 Joined: 10/23/2011 Location: Perth, WA, AU Status: offline MBI: 2050 Pnts MBI Site: Marine Breeding Initiative (MBI) Re:Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Bangaii Cardinal Eggs Monday, May 21, 2012 8:51 PM (permalink) 0 ops. double post <message edited by CaptCrash on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:30 AM>   #13 EasterEggs Total Posts : 1946 Scores: 19 Reward points : 735 Joined: 9/22/2011 Location: Saskatoon, SK, CA Status: offline MBI: 590 Pnts MBI Site: Marine Breeding Initiative (MBI) Re:Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Bangaii Cardinal Eggs Monday, May 21, 2012 10:55 PM (permalink) 0 Darren, that is very cool!  Thanks for sharing.  I couldn't figure it out at first until I realized the tank is full of water!  The water is so clear it looks like the tank is empty.  I thought at first the glass was overflowing.  I really like how simple this is, and the fact that I have everything needed to make this work.  I think I will ditch my kriesel-like design idea, and try this one next!   The second tumbler you describe as air driven without the bubbles touching the eggs is a design I used in the past with some success, but my particular design wasn't really good enough.  Maybe with some tweaking it might work as well.   #14 Fishtal Total Posts : 5467 Scores: 37 Reward points : 2908 Joined: 8/31/2006 Location: Waterford, MI, US Status: offline MBI: 585 Pnts MBI Site: MarineLife Aquarium Society of Michigan Re:Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Bangaii Cardinal Eggs Monday, May 21, 2012 11:00 PM (permalink) 0 Mindy, check this out: http://www.mbisite.org/Forums/tm.aspx?&m=31899&mpage=2 I used a 1L flask for dottyback eggs and it worked pretty well. http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage "Making captive breeding easier."   #15 EasterEggs Total Posts : 1946 Scores: 19 Reward points : 735 Joined: 9/22/2011 Location: Saskatoon, SK, CA Status: offline MBI: 590 Pnts MBI Site: Marine Breeding Initiative (MBI) Re:Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Bangaii Cardinal Eggs Monday, May 21, 2012 11:03 PM (permalink) 0 Thanks Tal!  I haven't come across those pictures of your before (or maybe I don't remember since tumblers weren't my focus months ago haha).  That's a nice, simple design too.  I forgot to look for an Aqua Lifter pump while I was at Petsmart.   #16 Fishtal Total Posts : 5467 Scores: 37 Reward points : 2908 Joined: 8/31/2006 Location: Waterford, MI, US Status: offline MBI: 585 Pnts MBI Site: MarineLife Aquarium Society of Michigan Re:Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Bangaii Cardinal Eggs Monday, May 21, 2012 11:10 PM (permalink) 0 Originally Posted by EasterEggs Thanks Tal!  I haven't come across those pictures of your before (or maybe I don't remember since tumblers weren't my focus months ago haha).  That's a nice, simple design too.  I forgot to look for an Aqua Lifter pump while I was at Petsmart. I got the idea from Chad Vossen who was using a beaker over a sump. I thought a flask might provide a better flow pattern due to the shape. Seemed to work well. Getting the rigid airline placed correctly was a bit of a challenge but well worth it.   I used fiberglass window screen to cover the top, that kept the egg mass in the flask but allowed the larvae to get out after hatching. The one mistake I made was not covering the intake on the pump on the first try... http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage "Making captive breeding easier."   #17 EasterEggs Total Posts : 1946 Scores: 19 Reward points : 735 Joined: 9/22/2011 Location: Saskatoon, SK, CA Status: offline MBI: 590 Pnts MBI Site: Marine Breeding Initiative (MBI) Re:Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Bangaii Cardinal Eggs Tuesday, May 22, 2012 6:45 AM (permalink) 0 Brilliant idea with the screen allowing the larvae out when they hatch!   #18 mPedersen Total Posts : 3450 Scores: 29 Reward points : 1376 Joined: 2/27/2009 Location: Duluth, MN, US Status: offline MBI: 4975 Pnts MBI Site: Lake Superior Marine Aquarium Club Re:Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Bangaii Cardinal Eggs Wednesday, May 23, 2012 2:43 PM (permalink) 0 Originally Posted by CaptCrash EasterEggs, would the idea shown in this video work for you? I have not tried it, but I was going to look at doing something similar. Flow can be adjusted by the pump strength and position. Various container shapes could be used.   This is basically the same as the water driven version I used, but the flow they're showing is substantially more than anything I did.   #19 waldend Total Posts : 604 Scores: 10 Reward points : 1855 Joined: 10/5/2010 Location: Lafayette, IN, US Status: offline MBI: 310 Pnts MBI Site: Marine Breeding Initiative (MBI) Re:Adventures with Artificial Incubation for Bangaii Cardinal Eggs Wednesday, May 23, 2012 7:36 PM (permalink) 0 Has there been any research or does anyone have any info on why eggs pulled early do not do well typically? If we could drive to the true root cause of that then perhaps a system could be designed around it. I am wondering, is the cumulative effect of all the collisions in a tumbler affecting the eggs? If so I am thinking of trying a system where I have the eggs sandwiched between two kayers of mesh. Then use a wavemaker to alternate current flow both directions past the trapped eggs. Just trying to think of what the males might be doing, or not doing, differently than we are.   #20 Online Bookmarks Sharing: Facebook Digg Google del.icio.us StumbleUpon Change Page: 12 > | Showing page 1 of 2, messages 1 to 20 of 29 - powered by ASPPlayground.NET Forum Trial Version

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