Why are Bangaiis not being commercially raised?

So as the title say, why are Bangaii's not being raised on a commercial scale? I've done it twice now and they are very easy. I understand the numbers are low, but if you had quite a few suitable pairs regularly holding eggs, i'm sure there wouold be great profit involved? am i missing something here?

Mike Meadows
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/thecoralshoppe
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheCoralShoppe?feature=mhee
 

http://www.seahorse.com/s...bnn749medffs6hlf4ot6h1
 

They are, but not in the volumes would think.  From my research, the math isn't there.....  Food requirements are much more expensive, you only get a few years out of a pair, and it takes them 2 months to produce a batch, that is relatively small...

Probably the biggest reason is there's no current process that fits in with the larger aquaculture operations.  My guess is it would rely on stripping eggs and maximizing production, 3-5 males per female maybe, and a change in the layout and operations of a plant.  Which means it really isn't going to be economically done (no real return value) for some time.  Then, all of a sudden, we'll be flooded with $4 CB Bangaiis... 
 
Possibility:  Pond breeding.
 
Jeff

The way I've heard it and it has kind of touched on here... it doesnt really fit the bill for a active shop with lots of activity. If they are spooked or bothered too much they will eat them or spit them too early. (This is from someone who has experience, so it is second hand from me.)

-Adam

They are certainly commercially viable, but I think the best explanation is echoed above - they don't work with the standard procedures used to rear other species.  It's much more effective to bring on another high-fecundity substrate spawning species that uses the same rearing protocols vs. doing something drastically different. So if you do one species of clownfish, much easier to add a half dozen more.  I think it was Todd Gardner who mentioned that basic concept at the workshop this year - fish that don't fit the routine are disruptive / difficult to assimilate into an existing hatchery.  On the one hand, I get it.
 
On the other hand, to those who say they can't be profitable, that's utter nonsense.  Their fecundity, reproductive strategy, difficulty, cost to produce and pricing in the chain of custody is on pair with commonly produced African Cichlid species like the Frontosa (Cyphotilapia frontosa) or the Lemon Yellow Labidochromis (Labidochromis caeruleus) and people who produce THOSE fish wouldn't produce them if they didn't make money.  So in that regard, I look at the "can't make money" argument as a falicy...it's more of "we can't make as much money as we might from a clownfish or something" and in that, there might be some truth.  Still, with CB Banggais retailing at $35-$50 each now, there's plenty of profit for the taking.  Time and again, I've been told by larger producers that they think the Banggai is perhaps the ideal mom & pop breeder fish.
 
 

Ok, just wondering where everyone stands on this. As i start working on a business plan for a larger facility I would like to have a setup specifically dedicated to them. Just wondering if its worth the money and time and why the big boys were not dealing with them. Now i know.

Mike Meadows
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/thecoralshoppe
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheCoralShoppe?feature=mhee
 

just fyi..I don't know what it is like elsewhere, but WC Bangaii can be bought in our area for under $10.  Retailers are bringing them in for 2-3 a pop.  At least in my area, the arguement of profitability is very real around here.  The shops I sell to are ones who simply are very objected to WCs and wish to personally promote CB Bangs. 
 
 

Wow that's not a lot of profit margin if they are selling for lees than $10.00 each. Even transhipping them (and i just checked this weeks lists) I can't get them for less than $5.00 and when you figure in shipping costs, i would have $12.00 or more per fish in them. Seems like these business are not really making any money off of them. and obviously not taking into account for the dead ones. I never buy WC ones though, except for when i was trying to get a brood stock pair. And at that i started out with 10 and only ended up with two. Another example of poor business practices keeping a superior product from being sold.

Mike Meadows
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/thecoralshoppe
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheCoralShoppe?feature=mhee
 

My best success with getting these fish to live was by buying the stock from a local breeder. What is your success with shipping them? My local breeder, a mom and pop, decided they were not worth the trouble, and stopped doing banggais, so I am looking for captive bred ones now.  

I think they are filling you full of @#$$!!!
 
WC Banggaiis usually wholesale to the store for $6-$8 + shipping.  Then you have a 75% + death rate from wild Banggaiis.

I kind of agree with the BS comment.  I can buy them directly from my wholesaler who is getting them from oversees.  I pay $8.00 wholesale when I am looking for broodstock and then there is the QT and death rate so I'm not quite believing the $2 wholesale thing.

Exactly. Really only those of us that are trying to breed them should be buying them from the wild. And even then the losses on them are horrible. They are just not good shippers. Its hard to even get a good group for display purposes. We really need to get the captive bred numbers up on these guys.

Mike Meadows
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/thecoralshoppe
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheCoralShoppe?feature=mhee
 

OK. I'll follow up with the next logical question: what is the most efficient/effective way to create a pair from WC banggais? Obviously get a group of them but is there any way to accellerate pair formation?  Also what do you do with the excess fish that don't pair?

That's what I thought until one was willing to show me the invoice.

I don't know what is the most efficient way, but I am doing this project ...more out of curiosity.....
http://www.mbisite.org/Forums/tm.aspx?m=59620
 
I only have 11 at this point, and I would not say I am far enough along to suggest I have made it with out deaths.  My last attempt to for a series of WC pairs result in a total loss.
 

How to pair them? I think the best strategy is to buy young ones in a group and wait until you can recognize a pair, separate the pair and wait for another pair to form, etc.  I did this with a young group of 5 and got two pairs from it, they never spawned satisfactorily, but I did get pairs.  Excess unpaired fish can be sold to a LFS. No problem.

Well here i mexico i can get wc for 3.50 each but they die a lot so i am trying to breed them comercially but i am waiting for f1 to beggin breeding maybe at the end of the year i will have 10 breeding pairs

 
Matt touched on this as well.  Like you said, "pond" breeding is the best bet with these guys on a large scale.  Mom & Pop as well....
 
Example: Tropicorium!  They have a huge vat filled with live rock that must have 8-10 pairs constantly producing babys.  They just dip out what they need to sell every week and thats that. 
 
If someone in Florida setup a similar system i could see it working easily.  

How big of a pond do you think one would need to accomplish it this way?

Ive only been to the trop once, so i cant say for certain how large their vats are but i just googled it and i see someone said they were 7'x14'x2.5'...?   That sounds pretty damn close. 

I think they are 6' wide. I recall Dick saying that they were designed so that both he and his son could reach the center from either side.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

I would think any body of water around that size or larger would work.  If these are done outdoors, then the standards used by outdoor coral farmers would apply (shelter, predator deterrents, etc...) as well.  

I had read an article
Wild-Caught Banggai Cardinalfish Contracting Untreatable and Highly Contagious Virus Sounds like it would be a great time to be raising them at home.

Got a link?

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

http://blog.aquanerd.com/2011/11/wild-caught-bangaii-cardinalfish-virus.html

RLTW

180 Gallon Mixed Reef

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8

Seagrest Farms published the article.
Wild-Caught Banggai Cardinalfish Contracting Untreatable and Highly Contagious Virus http://blog.aquanerd.com/...ardinalfish-virus.html
 

That explains a few things, thanks!

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

More info: http://vdi.sagepub.com/content/21/3/306.full

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

So i'm resurecting this thread. Went to Tropicorium after the MBI workshop and was amazed at the number of bangaii's they are raising. And sell at $20.00 each.
Trying to decide whether to try co culturing with some soft corals in my current reef setup. I have an idea of redoing it, and making it baby bangaii safe.  Or the other thought was to tear down the reef setup all together and buld an indoor SW pond.
The key to all of it is to use no mechanical pumps, only airlifts for water movement.
Let me know your thoughts. Probably won't work on it until after MACNA. You never know though.
 

Mike Meadows
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/thecoralshoppe
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheCoralShoppe?feature=mhee
 

Are the big vats for large shoals of Banggai?  If so, how do they collect the fry?

Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]

The vats are for growing coral, the Banggai just hang out in there and reproduce.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Yeah it appears that they stay underneath the coral racks, and then once release a majority of the fry make their way up to the many coral growout containers they have. This provides them protection and lots and lots of pods to pick on for food. It was amazing the amount of fry that were among these corals. 

Mike Meadows
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/thecoralshoppe
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheCoralShoppe?feature=mhee
 

Hmmm, that sounds very difficult to remove the fry.

Don't let fear and common sense stop you! =]

They don't remove them until they're ready to sell. There is plenty of stuff in there to eat.

http://www.fishtalpropagations.com/#!home/mainPage
"Making captive breeding easier."

Actually they said they can remove a hundred per day. Easily. When they do collect them. The water is pretty shallow where they are hanging out, and i could see it being easy to snatch them one by one with a small fine mesh net. 

Mike Meadows
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/thecoralshoppe
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheCoralShoppe?feature=mhee
 

 
Baby banggai can deal with quite a lot of water current. I wouldn't worry about pumps for their sake so long as they can get into the lee of things in the water column when they need to. The bigger problem is the adults eating the fry. You need a lot of places for them to hide. Teen-aged fry are ... well ... kind of idiots and will decide that nothing can hurt them. Kind of sounds familiar, actually.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886

Andy, i believe that they stay up top with the coral frags, where as the adults tend to stay below the racks in a nice shoal. I'm sure the occasional one will get picked off.
 
The goal of this project is to be able to do it in a sustainable manner. So using air instead of pumps and only sufficient lighting as needed to grow the coral types we are going to work with. So yes, i could use a recirculating system with a skimmer, i'm intrigued to see what a skimmer less system with a refugium will garner in the way of coral health and population of cardinals. 

Mike Meadows
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/thecoralshoppe
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheCoralShoppe?feature=mhee
 

I've gone this route too - all my 300G tubs of coral have 12-15 Banggai's in them. I feed about twice, sometimes three times a day.  I've got a sponge on the intake of the pump and skimmer so not too worried about sucking them in (although Im sure it can/will happen).  I'm running six of these (only five up at the moment, got a pair of triggers in one of the 300 tubs), if I can get 10 every 2-3 months out of each tub, I'll call it a win.

I would think oval tanks (horse troughs) with propeller pumps creating a gyre would be a good way to go. You could have two sets on timers. Once or twice a day you could change the direction of the gyre. You can get incredible amounts of flow with relatively few pumps with something like that.

--Andy, the bucket man.
"Not to know the mandolin is to argue oneself unknown...." --Clara Lanza, 1886